UL at 0° F?

[HkNewman]

Over in the SUL thread, a "luxurious" SUL gear list for 30° was debated to be a 15° list if one wore the base layers to sleep I guess (that would be Cap 4 hoody/pants worn under a quilt, in a water resistant bivy with the tarp, Zpacks Challenger rain gear, booties interestingly, etc..)

Sooo..

Expanding on that gear list, could a 10 lb base be put together for a low of 0°? Adding R1, "poofays", and such to the pack (don't forget pee bottle), but not counting heavier footwear baselayer worn, etc..

Thoughts? (assuming we're not talking about -20° if the Jetstream moves).

[Stephen M]

I have tried it once, temps where supposed to be 5f and turned out to be -13f.

I dodged that bullet, would not try it again..

Oh, do snow shoes count as base weight ;-)

[Justin Baker]

I think it could work, but I think you would want to rely on your sleeping bag entirely for stationary/sleeping warmth. Ditch the poofay and just crawl into your bag as soon as you set up camp. Only carry mid layers and outerwear to get you through the day. That's the lightest option.
The skills and tools to build a fire in snow would be really helpful.

[W I S N E R !]

http://old.andrewskurka.com/ICE07/index.php

13 pounds….

[Stephen M]

13pound for a 0f overnight is definitely acceptable to me, not sure if I would want to do it on a 3 night trip.

[Stuart .]

Sounds like some serious unsprung weight there, Stephen :-)

[Andrew F]

Check out Andy Duncan's list…

http://seatosummitultralight.blogspot.com/2014/05/seven-day-sierra-snow-gear-list-2014.html?m=1

[Roger Caffin]

> do snow shoes count as base weight ;-)

We do not normally count clothing or footwear as 'base weight', so snowshoes would not be included either in my book.
But there are no official definitions.

Cheers

[Stephen M]

Thanks Roger
I would not count them myself either, In know some on here do if they are going to be carrying them.

[HkNewman]

Stephen: know the feeling as one trip I went on had a forecast low of 20° F but a dip in the jetsteam took it down to 3°F. My 25° bag was inadequate, and despite clothing, everywhere I pressed the sleeping bag, a cold spot appeared. So I'm really looking at this 0 to -10°F as absolute lows with forecast lows in the single digits.

[Stephen M]

Its a bit of a moot point for me anyways as I barely hit Ul on 3 season trips as enjoy my comfort too much :-)

[Peter Boysen]

I think it's definitely possible to hit those types of weights, with a few caveats:

– Being a normal-sized or smaller person probably helps a lot. Since cold weather trips tend to be clothing-heavy anyway, being quite tall or quite heavy is going to compound that weight really quickly.

– It's going to be really hard to count snow shoes in the weight.

– Somewhat shelter dependent. Tarps CAN work almost anywhere, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should.

I wish I had put together actual gear weights for the trip I did this past winter. I was definitely over 10 lbs, but some of the big items didn't have to be nearly that heavy; I just used them because they were cheap, or borrowed. I'm pretty tall too, so as mentioned above, the clothing weights add up fast, especially since nothing was especially light.

*Edit*

Other than my quilts (a 20° and a 40°, and even there a purpose-built cold weather quilt would have been obviously lighter), the only really UL thing I used was a Thermarest Xlite. While I wouldn't recommend it to anyone for -15F, it is technically functional.

[Jim Colten]

responding to a couple comments here:

* as Stephen M hinted … the answer will depend on how reliable you think your weather guessers are. That varies by region. Snowfall amounts can be very hard to forecast accurately … especially near very large bodies of water and a 6 hour timing error on when a cold or warm front arrives can easily make a 20-30 degree F difference.

* Skurka's 13 lb base wt (24.6 lbs FSO) was for 400 miles covered in 15-20 days where he experienced temps ranging from about -20F to above freezing. It'd be possible to go lighter on an overnight or 2 nighter. (possible, but not trivial). Moisture management gets difficult on longer outings. Skurka has been relatively up front that he could not have managed winter on his Sea-to-Sea trek without angels taking him indoors 1 or 2 nights per week. The above mentioned 400 miler was sort of a "final exam" for his more advanced winter skills two years later.

[Andy Duncan]

I've done a few multi-day winter trips with a 10 lb base weight (aka 10.10 and 10.63, but who's counting). The thermometer on my watch stops working below 14-15 degrees so I'm not sure the exact low temps but I've slept through several nights after my watch froze. I would feel comfortable taking this setup down to 0 for a few reasons:

On most nights I sleep without a puffy and although the Montbell Mirage or EX Light are included on the lists I usually just bring the Blackrock vest. I use the lightest stable winter shelter I could find so that I could 'spend' the weight on extra 900 fp down for my quilt. In my experience a lightweight cuben MLD Solomid made with 0.5 oz/sqyd cuben holds up well in (very) high winds and weighs just slightly over 8 ozs. I end up using more down (16.7 ozs) for my quilt and I have slept warm through a some all night storms. Also, to save weight I engineered the footbox to fit the shape of my feet and included a little extra room for homemade down booties. For perspective I'm 6' & 195 lbs in the winter:). More info here:

Winter Quilt with Trapezoidal Baffled Footbox

After my Monatauk Gnat canister stove failed last spring I broke down and finally starting using an old heavy Whisperlite w/ a Trail Designs ti windscreen and Evernew 1 liter pot/lid. This is plenty for me and one other person.

A few other key pieces of gear have been the Suluk46 ti snow anchors (.5 oz), Blackrock down mitts (2 ozs) and beanie (.8 oz), Snowclaw shovel (6 ozs), Rocky Gortex socks and some homemade stuff like w/b cuben/dyneema glove shells (1 oz), down booties (2.2 oz), cuben winter pack (14 oz: Heavyweight Ultralight Backpack ) etc.

I used this setup on a 5 day trip in 2013 here:

Glacier Divide Loop

a 5 day trip in 2014 here (BTW, many thanks for Andrew and Chris for letting me use their stove after mine failed):

High Sierra Snowshoe Trip

a 7 day trip in 2014 here:

Tablelands Snowshoe Trek

If you're interested there are some detailed gear lists here:

Seven Day Sierra Snow Gear List 2014

Winter Sierra Gear List

It took a few years and some very cold trial and error (like using a 40 degree quilt in 15 degree weather) but this seems to be working so far. I hope this helps. Andy.

[David Adair]

Andy- wow, that could be the ultimate UL winter gear list. Nice job. Oh and thanks, now I want one of those Montbell Mirage Parkas.

[HkNewman]

Thanks Andy – have you had any problems with Cuben hybrid fiber and low temperatures?

[Andy Duncan]

Thanks! Dave, that Mirage is incredible, like a sleeping bag/jacket. The only time I've heard my wife say, "I'm too hot in this" is while she was wearing it (she runs really cold).

HK, I used the older white w/b cuben and it is not very durable. The orig Zpacks mitts weren't really made for use in the snow and I wore through them after one winter trip. I used dyneema on the palm and fingers of the MYOG shells. The w/b cuben on the back and wrists seems to be holding up ok. I found a source for lightweight Gortex @ 3.8 oz/sqyd that I'm going to try next time. In the meantime the dyneema seems to hold up well even while putting in the snow anchors but it doesn't breath at all.

[Aaron Sorensen]

The one thing that I would have a hard time doing with a sub 10 (because I don't have much experience in those temps) is needing a fully enclosed shelter.
Temps are much warmer at night when in a fully enclosed shelter. Find something light enough and everything should be good.

When you think of how warm of a jacket you would need and your 0 degree quilt/ bag, staying warm (in a tent) is not that hard.
What is hard is all of this just adds weight.

Others are saying Definitely, so going by an experienced list from ones that have done it before are much better than any advise I could give.

You want to talk 30 degrees, I can talk all day about those temps.

[HkNewman]

Looking at Andy's winter pack, noting the 25" custom aluminum frame, so estimating a 28" tall pack. The next item is the "sleeping bag rolled" volume while trying to keep pack width down as per the need to clear arms swinging the poles for likely snow mobility.

[Mitch Chesney]

Take a look at alpinism for winter UL inspiration.

shelter: Black Diamond Firstlight 45oz
stakes: (x4-6 = ) ~8oz
bag: ZPacks 20F extra wide regular quilt ~18oz
pad: small xtherm 11oz
CCF 2nd pad: Gossamer Gear Thinlight 1/4" (trimmed) 6oz
bag: GoLite Jam 50: 30oz
stove: MSR 1.7L reactor 17.5oz
mess (other): long spoon, butane lighter, etc (~1oz)
2x spare socks: ~4oz
2x spare glove liners: ~8oz
puffy/belay jacket: ~36oz
down puffy pants: ~16oz
Nalgenes (HDPE): (x2 = ) ~8oz

That's a standard kit and weighs ~13lbs. You sleep in your puffy layers if necessary, so you won't need to bring a -10F bag.

[Andy Duncan]

This has probably already been addressed in another thread but it seems relevant here: In my experience adding down to a winter quilt is a more efficient way to increase warmth and comfort instead of using a much heavier fully enclosed shelter. I have been able to save over 1.5 lbs on my winter base weight by using a slightly heavier quilt with a lightweight cuben Solomid instead of a fully enclosed winter/4 season tent. YMMV:)

[Justin Baker]

Mitch, why would a winter alpinist carry a 1.7 liter pot? That's huge.

[Stephen M]

For melting snow Justin.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Tarptent Moment DW (ripstop inner & shortened internal X-ing pole) -> 40 oz.

Western Mountaineering bag (overstuffed 2 0z.) -> 26 oz.

Thermarest Trail Pro mattress -> 30 oz. (heavy but necessary)

Osprey EXOS 58 pack (size L) -> 44 oz.

Sidewinder stove (W/ Inferno woodburning insert & 3 cup pot & lid) -> 8 oz.

With the Moment DW solo tent I have a very small volume to heat and it gives me at least another 15 F. of warmth when mostly buttoned up. (i.e. one downwind low end vent open and both small top vents open) The shortened X-ing pole runs INSIDE the fly for more support and I've sewn on 4 fly hem stake loops to nail it down in high winds and thus a "winterized" Moment DW.

NOTE: I may sell my great Eddie Bauer down jacket (see my avatar) and get their newer version with Down Tech DWR treated down.
I like the idea of DWR treated down. Pricier but probably worth it.

[Bob Moulder]

Right in line with this thread topic, so I'll bump rather than create a new one….

---

This is my first full winter since converting to UL and I've done a bunch of little trips to tweak things, the most recent being this one http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=100548&skip_to_post=851648#851648 where it all pretty much came together successfully.

My gear list is located in my Profile. Nothing fancy, and without the camera and tripod I'd be slightly below 13lbs, which does indeed seem to be the magical figure for winter UL down to 0F, although with a couple of $omewhat pricey substitutions (Cuben Duomid being the most obvious) I think I could get it down to 12. The sleep pads might seem excessive, but I tried a few different arrangements and this is what worked for me.

I tried to update the list to add consumables for my normal overnight quickie, but it wouldn't refresh (the way the avatars wouldn't update not that long ago, ugh!). Consumables – 40 oz water, dinner, breakfast, trail food and fuel came it at 4.62lbs to bring the total carried weight of 18.53lbs.

For sustained sub-zero and down to about -25f and adding crampons (not microspikes) and ice axe, heavier sleeping bag, heavier pack, etc, I'd be very happy to achieve an 18lb base weight.

Edit: Sorry, I tried to fix the damned link and it wouldn't stick, just like the gear list update… grrrr…. THEN I checked using Explorer and it DID update! Other issues using Chrome??

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