Insulation for GNP in Aug

[Stephen Parks]

Hi All. I'm headed to Glacier NP in a week, and I'm trying to make some final tweaks to my gear list, particularly what insulation I should take. My understanding is that lows are likely to be down to 45F or so, and I ought to be prepared for a possible low of 30F. Given that, I'm thinking of packing so I'll be easily comfortable at 45 and maybe a little cold but not completely miserable at 30F. I'm a somewhat cold sleeper. I'll also not want to be too cold around camp or if we get a cold rain during the day.

I have no choices for pad or bag, so those will be an Exped UL 7 (with 1/8" thinlight pad) and an EE RevX 30 + 2oz extra down. Tent is a TT Notch.

I will have my nylon hiking pants and long sleeve T that I'll be hiking in, and in addition I'll take:
-ZPacks microfleece beanie
-Acorn Fleece socks only for sleeping
-Buff
-Montbell Tachyon Anorak and OR Helium II and Zpacks rain kilt
-Fleece glove liners and some windstopper shells (not water resistant)

In addition to that, I'd like to be able to get by with just the addition of a Montbell Ex-Light jacket. However, I can also choose from the following:
-Montbell Alpine Light Parka (obviously instead of the Ex-light) – 8.75 oz increase
-Synthetic long underwear or Fleece pants – 6-7 oz
-Lightweight half-zip fleece – 7.3 oz

What do you think? My thinking is that even though I sleep cold, I have a fairly warm pad and quilt for the conditions so I should be ok with just the Ex-light. Should I take more? Should I take the fleece pullover in case I need some insulation while hiking?

Your experience is appreciated. (I really ought to get a recording thermometer so I can better learn to correlate temps to my personal comfort needs).

-Stephen

Edit: Here's the full gear list if you are interested:
GNP Gear List

[Edward Jursek]

Sleeping temps are a really personal thing. I hike in the North Cascades and for summer I use a Zpacks 30 degree quilt, Goosefeet down balaclava and booties, and a light weight merino bottom and top that are dedicated sleep cloths. I feel like I sleep warm. I sleep under a tarp. This set-up keeps me warm right to about 30 degrees. Good site selection helps, keeping under trees and away from terrain that can act as a cold sink.

I have had a number of nights were it has dipped below 30 degrees in August, maybe as low as 26-27 degrees. I will throw on my pants and my wind shirt and be just fine. For me, a puffy down jacket in summer would be overkill. In camp, I just put on my wind shirt. The vast majority of nights in the North Cascades are above 40. I am not sure if GNP is significantly cooler in the summer.

[John Klinepeter]

Stephen,

I am one of those crazy ones that carries a recording thermometer. I can't predict what the temps will be on your trip but I think the 30 to 45 degree predicted lows are solid. I spent last night at Lincoln Lake during which the low was a fairly balmy 44 outside/46 inside the single wall floorless tent. At the end of July at Red Eagle Lake the lows for two nights were an insanely warm 59 degrees (sorry, I did not record whether this was in or outside the tent). In mid July about 20 miles south of the Park at ~6000 feet the NOAA predicted low was 50 degrees. They were not even close. The outside low was 30, the in-tent low was 37. On Flattop Mtn. in the Park at the end of August a few years ago the temp dropped to 28 degrees (going by memory).

To the extent these numbers give you some idea of what to expect I hope they bring you some comfort.

As to the clothing, if you use the lighter Montbell jacket your kit would be very similar to what I carried for a number of years. You should be warm enough. The last couple of years my list has changed somewhat in favor of carrying a fleece or other synthetic along with a down vest or jacket. It's all a matter of personal preference.

I see on your gear list that you are carrying 20 feet of twine, which I believe is the amount recommended by GNP. I would goose that number up a bit just to be safe. Yes, I'm quibbling!

The huckleberry crop this year is bountiful. Enjoy!

Edited to clarify down jacket choice.

[MFR]

Stephen, no need to go too heavy on the insulation as most GNP sites are down in the lower elevations where nighttime temps are warmer. For me, a fleece shirt (Cap 4 knock-off), beanie, and rain or wind shell are enough until September. This last week, I was so hot in my long sleeve shirt and silk bottoms that I shifted as much down to one side of my 20 deg. quilt and slept under the other half. I was still hot.

You can always bring extra insulation and plan on leaving it in the car unless you score higher campgrounds or the forecast changes. It's been a warm summer so far though.

[Stephen Parks]

Thanks to all for the replies. I've update the gear list to Revision 2, which lists the Montbell Ex-light and fleece pants. I'd love to ditch the jacket and fleece pants, but the just-in-case bug is buzzing in my ear. I'll at least take them to the park and make a last minute decision about whether to leave one or both in the car, as you suggest, Clayton.

Puffy vs. fleece jacket: the Ex-light weighs 2.3 oz less than the lightest fleece pullover that I have, so is the lightest option other than nothing but a windshirt. A fleece is certainly less delicate, but is there any other reason a fleece would be preferred? (Also factor in that I paid good money for the Ex-light but haven't had a chance to take it on a trip yet ;)

The fleece pants will definitely be overkill if it doesn't get cold. Might help me to just cowboy camp on nicer nights, though.

20 ft. of twine: Quibble all you like! I had no idea that was a recommendation by GNP; I'll have to look for their list. I have it just in case I need to stretch a tie-out, but yes, the length does get used up quicker than one might expect. Also, it is just cheap plastic twine. I might ought to get some of that pink mason's twine I've seen around here.

Edit: Oops, gear list now available to all who have the link (was set to Private on Google Drive).

[John Klinepeter]

Stephen,

It is always hard to convey meaning without writing 10,000 words, adding diagrams and photos. To clarify my previous attempt at communication I formerly would carry a light down jacket, the Montbell UL Inner, because that is what I possessed. Yes, it was probably overkill. I recently bought a ~4 ounce down vest, love it, and think it is more appropriate as a backup in case the weather turns unusually cold. Your Ex-Light is incredibly light, too. The few nights I have spent in GNP this summer have been very warm and my 12 oz. fleece jacket would have sufficed.

I have never carried fleece pants and have never missed them or the warmth they might provide. Occasionally I wear them on very cold winter days when skiing or snow shoeing. YMMV, etc.

I tried to take a look at the revised gear list and it requires permission (now corrected but I will not bother to revise my writing). My feeble memory is telling me that the twine was the only cord/rope/ on the list and I assumed (?) that you would be using this to hang your food bag. If I am mistaken and you had two listings for cord, one for hanging food and another for miscellaneous use, then my apologies. I just think 25 feet works a little better at some camp sites especially if others are hogging the best tie-off locations. Ha! Here it is on a copy of a Backcountry Permit "RECOMMEND 25' rope to hang food". Not 20 feet.

Let's see what the experts say!

Don't sweat it! You will have a good time.

[David Chenault]

List looks good to me. I'd bring the Ex-Light and leave the fleece tights and shirt, as Clayton says its been unusually warm around here, and that seems likely to continue.

30 feet of rope for the food poles will do you well.

[Stephen Parks]

Thanks for the clarification, John. That's a good catch on the cord. I thought all sites would either be a hanging pole with a staff to hoist the bag or have cables. I'll change out to something more hang-worthy and add a little length and a carabiner.

The fleece pants will likely get left in the car. They are nice to slip into at night, but not nice enough to carry the 7 oz unless it will be cold.

Edit: thanks Dave. I was typing my reply to John as you were posting yours.

[Stephen Parks]

I had 35ft. of TripTease cord in the closet, so I hope that will work for the hang. It isn't the slickest stuff, but if I'm hanging over a wire maybe it will work.

So, with adding the extra cord and mini-carabiner, subtracting the fleece pants and the glove shells, I'm at 11.7 lbs. base weight, which isn't too bad I think considering my comfy accommodations. That includes camera and hat, which probably won't spend much time in my pack. My friends will be going heavy, so we'll see how the two styles shake out. I'll take my hanging scale on the trip to compare.

I'm taking a little TP, but not much. What are the preferred wiping materials available in GNP? The backcountry guide says that the campsites have pit toilets – is that true for all?

[John Klinepeter]

I'm not sure how well I can answer your questions but I will try. I'm not familiar with TripTease but I have to believe that almost any cord will work.

There are three types of backcountry food storage methods in GNP that I am aware of:
1) An upside down u-shaped metal pipe assembly. Quite often your rope can be tied off to adjacent trees but that option is not always available in which case you tie off to the bolts/hardware that are part of the structure.
2) A pipe-sheathed cable suspended between two trees.
3) Food storage lockers at ground level.

Number 1 seems to be the most common. Fifty Mtn. is the only camp I am aware of that uses number 3, though I vaguely remember seeing them at Elizabeth Lake Foot. I doubt that I have seen/used even one third of the food storage sites so take my words as an estimate of the complete picture.

All the camps that I have visited have outhouses. Not all of the risers are enclosed, however. Stony Indian and Akokala are the two that come to mind. I'm not sure what the etiquette is but I would leave an article of clothing on the trail to indicate that the facility is occupied. They are reasonably private in any case.

Yes, BYOTP. You will find none there unless a camper left a roll. I'm not quite sure what you are asking re: preferred materials. I try to pack out my used TP while on the trail but usually just deposit it into the vault if I am in camp (hmmm, I see an opportunity to be more LNT). In recent years I have also become somewhat of a follower of Mike Clelland's use of vegetation in lieu of TP but I am by no means 100% there yet.

[MFR]

All official backcountry sites have a pit toilet. John is right, some aren't enclosed, but they're set away from the campground a bit to help. I've been to several others–Boulder Pass, Lake Isabel, and Lake Janet come to mind, but there are others. (Frankly, I prefer the open ones–the enclosed ones are dark and don't have a breeze.) Personally, I find vegetation to use and never bring TP. I just make sure it's something prolific (like thimbleberry for instance) or on they way out for the season so that I don't do any damage. The grass brush method is my favorite. But you can deposit TP in the pit toilet, and it weighs next to nothing, so it's personal preference.

John is also right about the bear hanging. Almost all sites either have a dedicated pole (e.g., Cobalt Lake, Hawksbill) if trees sufficiently tall aren't nearby or a wire strung between two trees (the vast majority of sites). Elizabeth Lake foot has boxes not because of bears (though, they're necessary for that) but because of flying squirrels, which were getting into people's food. Fifty Mountain has them too (and probably a couple of others), but I'm not sure if it's to protect against the same critters or what. It's safe to say that if you see boxes around, watch out for the little ones too.

Oddly enough, and I've never had this happen any year but this year, I have had two sets of trekking pole handles chewed in the middle of the night. Both were in camp, and one set was even used as the support for my shelter (TarpTent SS2)! The first time it happened, it was so bad that I had to replace the handles.

[Stephen Parks]

"What are the preferred wiping materials available in GNP?"

Yeah, that wasn't very clear, but still you guys answered my question and then some anyway. I meant to ask what types of vegetation are available and good for wiping. I now realize that I wouldn't recognize most plants there even if you told me their names, but I do like the idea of using plants that are on their way out for the season – hadn't thought of that before. As long as there is enough to choose from, I'll find something.

I'll have a trowel along just in case, but I won't refuse a reasonable pit toilet. I'm sure the park prefers that you use them.

Seems like there ought to be something we could spray on gear to repel the salt-seeking critters. Maybe some of the spray that is meant to keep dogs from chewing things or themselves?

[Sam Haraldson]

Best wiping methods ranked in order for GNP are (in my opinion):

1. snow
2. wooly lamb's ear
3. grass "broom"
4. smooth river rocks

Addendum: Boulder Pass low rider toilet is the single, very, best toilet the world has to offer. Or at least the view from it anyway.

[MFR]

"Boulder Pass low rider toilet is the single, very, best toilet the world has to offer. Or at least the view from it anyway."

+5,000

Getting to use this toilet already has me excited for the weekend.

[Nick Smolinske]

I did a trip recently in Glacier and one campsite had a tree covered in old man's beard that was right on the trail to the latrine. Couldn't have been more convenient. Not super common in the park but worth keeping an eye out.

Also, in my experience everything in Glacier is pretty moderate . . . warm nights, warm water, etc. I'm not sure exactly why. Much warmer than the Bob Marshall, for instance. But on my last trip (in August, with a solid, good weather forecast), I brought my rain jacket as my only layer and slept under a 5.0-oz climashield quilt, with no problems. A different weather forecast or a longer trip would've changed my mind – this was only 2 nights with little chance for the weather to change.

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