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Pushing the Dew point out of a down bag using a synthetic overquilt.


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  • #1314765
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    Hi,

    Forgive me if this has been answered before.

    I am wondering what temperature rating synthetic overquilt needs to be used to push the dew point of a down inner bag at 10f, 0f and minus 10f.

    Cheers,

    Stephen

    #2085527
    S Long
    BPL Member

    @izeloz

    Locale: Wasatch

    I could be wrong, but I don't think the temperature rating of the synthetic overquilt will matter as much as the temperature INSIDE the down bag (e.g. are you warm?) and the insulation type of the synthetic overquilt. From my understanding, Primaloft One is one of the very best at moisture transfer and drying. So, with a down bag of a sufficient temperature rating to keep you comfortable at expected temperatures (more or less) I would imagine a quilt of the lightest weight Primaloft One would do the job of "drying" the down bag (moisture transfer based on the properties of the insulation and temperature differential). The moisture would probably condense and freeze on the outer fabric of the top quilt, but synthetic insulation is good at dealing with that and you could shake off the ice and dry it in the sun (even if it's below freezing).

    #2085538
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    The temperature will gradually decrease from 92 F or so next to your body, to the ambient temperature outside your bag. The point where the temperature reaches 32 F is where any water vapor passing through will freeze and stay there.

    You want that freezing point to be inside the synthetic. It just depends on the amount of insulation in the down and synthetic layers and the ambient temperature.

    #2085553
    Eric Blumensaadt
    BPL Member

    @danepacker

    Locale: Mojave Desert

    True, when your body moisture reaches 32 F. it will ffeeze BUT it will condense long before that, and likely somewhere inside the synthetic quilt, as you surmize.

    But… if you make that quilt into a mummy-shaped bag "topper" that is held on your bag with just 6 Velcro strips (3 on each side of the bag) then you'll save weight and gain better heat retention. Plus no worries about the quilt sliding off your bag in the night. That means a greater likelihood that the coindensation point will be in the outer layers of the "topper".

    #2085616
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    Thanks Guys,

    I have both a 2.1oz Apex quilt and a 6oz one. I probaly need to test them out with a thermometer under the quilt and outside the bag.

    #2085670
    Greg Mihalik
    Spectator

    @greg23

    Locale: Colorado

    Dew Point is complex – a thermometer won't tell you much –

    From Wiki:
    The dew point is the temperature at which the water vapor in air at constant barometric pressure condenses into liquid water at the same rate at which it evaporates. At temperatures below the dew point, water will leave the air. The condensed water is called dew when it forms on a solid surface.

    DewPoint

    Note where the dew point is relative to 32F/0C.

    At 7000', relative humidity at the middle school is 17%, and the dew Point is 7°F.
    At the air port, 3 miles away RH is 12%, and the dew point is -1°F

    The question is What is the Relative Humidity in the bags? as well as the Temperature.

    #2085673
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    Thanks Greg,

    Will check that out.

    #2085678
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    If you are in cool/high humidity conditions, I would expect to have more issues with moisture condensing on the cold fabric on the outside of the bag and would consider a light breathable bivy/cover vs a whole other layer of insulation, unless your bag is too light for the expected temps.

    #2085713
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    Hi Dale,

    It would be for below 10f and I would have a sufficent bag with me.

    #2085763
    Matt Dirksen
    BPL Member

    @namelessway

    Locale: Mid Atlantic

    "The question is What is the Relative Humidity in the bags? as well as the Temperature."

    I'm afraid this is only half the picture, and it's even more complicated than that.

    Since vapor drive is pressure driven, both the temperature and RH of inside the bag and the temp/RH of air around the outside bags is equally relevant. Also, keep in mind that as a person sleeps, their metabolism changes throughout the night affecting both the ambient temp and RH of the inside of the bag. And as they exhale, their breathing and radiant heat will affect the temp & RH of the airspace around the bag, assuming one is in a 3/4 season tent with limited ventilation. And even if one is cowboy camping, the temp/RH during any given night is not a consistent thing either.

    So… one would need to know the bag interior's temp/RH and the airspace around the bag to get a better picture, and also know that this is a moving target throughout the night (sigh.) This means, quite simply, that two people sleeping in the same tent with the exact same sleeping bag systems could experience different results, simply due to their different metabolisms alone.

    On a slight tangent, I am dealing with this issue in the architecture/building world, where the industry finally has software which can calculate if the dewpoint will be reached somewhere within a wall assembly at any point of a year based on climate data of a specific area. Up until recently, no one really knew where that dewpoint would hit, and people relied on "rules of thumb". Sadly, these rules varied for different regions, were not understood by builders & architects, and subsequently poorly adopted into code. So the net result is there are many walls of people's homes out there that likely have mold & rot inside them, due to this lack of understanding with vapor drive.

    I've thought about trying to adapt the software for a sleeping bag, but it's far too complicated for me to figure out anytime soon. I honestly don't think I can change the interior environment variables to "simulate" the air within a sleeping bag. But for the adventurous & scientists out there, here's a link to the (free) software:

    http://www.wufi.de/index_e.html

    #2085771
    Dale Wambaugh
    BPL Member

    @dwambaugh

    Locale: Pacific Northwest

    I would start leaning to a vapor barrier liner at less than 10f. The ambient humidity would be low at that temp anyway.

    The other confounding variables would be the mass and metabolism of the user. A 140 pounder would have a different output than a 230 pound hiker!

    #2085776
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    Cheers guys, lots of great info.

    #2086249
    Woubeir (from Europe)
    BPL Member

    @woubeir

    @Matt
    doesn't the permeance of the shell-fabric play a role too ?

    #2086325
    Matt Dirksen
    BPL Member

    @namelessway

    Locale: Mid Atlantic

    Sure does.

    But so does both the permeance and R-value of the down/synthetic insulation. (It's great that down has the high warmth to weight ratio, but the reason why down is typiccally considered more "comfortable" than synthetic is due to it's higher permeability. A synthetic bag of the exact same R-value can leave a person "clammy" with the right temperature/RH mix. But the stakes are higher in cold/humid weather, so a synthetic overbag is a safer bet.)

    The great advantage of a synthetic overbag is it's ability to remain warm if the vapor does hit the dew point within it's insulation. In a down overbag, that's probably not a pleasant thing to plan for.

    Of course there's always the vapor barrier technique as well. But using a vbl in cold/humid situations can be risky; there is still a vapor drive occurring from a warm/"dry" surface to cold/humid air. Not to mention convection issues from tossing and turning during the night.

    #2086341
    Woubeir (from Europe)
    BPL Member

    @woubeir

    I'll asked because the choice of the shell-fabric is important too. E.g. do I choose a Windstopper-shell, Endurance or something else ?

    #2086388
    Matt Dirksen
    BPL Member

    @namelessway

    Locale: Mid Atlantic

    There's a lot of neat shell stuff out there, but in my opinion: choose permeable – whatever that looks like to you.

    It was proven back in the late 80's that the "waterproof breathable" shells weren't working well on the cold weather bags, due to condensation and frosting occurring on the inside face of the sleeping bag's shell. Sadly, a lot of companies were seduced by the "GORE Zeitgeist", and made a lot of products without any thorough testing, especially toward vapor management. Even to this day, there still seems to be a lot of "build first, design second" mentality. Most items we use are probably best suited for specific climates. Why doesn't the industry tell us which ones they are best suited for?

    Personally, I now believe that all sleeping bags should be as permeable as practical (as long as they keep the down in). Leave the "waterproof breathable" stuff to another system altogether. Even the lightest interior shell fabrics (Seven D, Nobul 1)all are somewhat wind resistant and have a slight dwr finish on them. To me, that is perfect.

    Here's why I think the way I do about sleeping bags:

    Inside a tent; having a built-in "waterproof breathable" shell is not only redundant, but the lack in permeability can raise the risk of condensation within the insulation, especially in a cold/humid environment (which is what most tents will eventually create in the right circumstance). A small amount dwr on the outer fabric is just fine, as long as it doesn't impact the permeability.

    If one is cowboy camping directly under the stars, many experienced hikers can attest to the fact that (unless you literally sleep like the cowboys did – with wool and cotton blankets) it's very difficult to pinpoint if and where in their system that dewpoint might occur, especially on clear/cold/most evenings. Therefore, one should employ a separate system from the insulation (like a bivy) that can manage vapor transport and potential condensation. Either way, most bivy's will experience condensation at one time or another. Just have a good way to remove the water when it does.

    I've never tried it, but I've wondered if a light cotton/fleece-like sheet might be in order, just under the outer shell of a bivy- just enough to absorb any condensation that might occur, or provide some much needed separation between the sleeping bag and the bivy shell.

    (This is exactly how the old Bibler/Integral Designs Todd/Tegral tex worked.)

    Finally, if your bag's insulation does ever gets wet, it will dry faster if both the inner and outer shell fabric is as permeable as can be. In the building world, it is easy to design a wall that keeps water out of it. It is difficult (and climate driven) to design a wall that both keeps water out, and properly lets water out of it when things get wet from the inside.

    #2086395
    Woubeir (from Europe)
    BPL Member

    @woubeir

    @Matt
    I know how complicated it is to design and built such a wall. We're in the process of designing and building our "passive house" and I have the specs and so to act as the energy advisor (I'm pretty sure I know more about the design and which materials to choose then our architect). :-)

    #2086413
    Matt Dirksen
    BPL Member

    @namelessway

    Locale: Mid Atlantic

    Yeah. The architecture profession has not caught up with the building science profession, that's for sure.

    A "Passivehaus" by any chance?! :)

    Moisture management is especially crucial in those houses, that's for sure. Other than greenbuilding listserves, my go-to resource on moisture management is Building Science Corp. (www.buildingscience.com) and http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com

    Good luck, and enjoy the ride!

    #2086429
    Woubeir (from Europe)
    BPL Member

    @woubeir

    jip, a Passivehaus. Very challenging. That's why follow it so closely. And no one (even my wife who says I'm obsessed) knows the design and the materialchoises we have to make (and can make) as well as I. :-)

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