Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes

[Lawson Kline]

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to see if there was an interest in my titanium sand/snow stakes? I made myself a set a few years back and they work great. Now that I am working to increase my product line, I wanted to see if there was any interest in selling them. I know we are coming out of the winter season but they work great in sand too.. Actually that's really what I originally designed them for. These are the "small" UL ones. They are 5" long x 3" wide and weigh 19.5 grams (.68oz) each which is equal in weight to 3 quarters and 1 penny for those of you who don't have a gram scale. Not sure on pricing just yet, but my goal price point is $10-$12 each.. So all that said, is there any interest?

Thanks,
Lawson

[Matt Weaver]

I'd take a set of those.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi lawson

Can I suggest you do NOT put all those holes in the stakes for snow? You don't save much weight, and the holes can make them really hard to extract. I put no holes in my Ti stakes.

Cheers

[BlackHatGuy]

"Can I suggest you do NOT put all those holes in the stakes for snow?"

Agreed. I'd be up for a set without the big holes (only the two small holes along the center line).

[Bob Gross]

I've made my own snow anchors like this out of aluminum, never titanium, although they were about 50% larger. At least for those, I felt like the holes were very important. Roger said that the holes would make them hard to extract. Yes, that is exactly the point. I want those suckers frozen in solidly so that the wind can't pull them out. Now, if I really really need to extract them, then prying them with an ice axe always did the trick. The aluminum ones were thick enough that they could be pounded in with a rock or with an ice axe. Although the titanium ones would be thinner, I think they still need to be that strong. So, which titanium alloy are we talking about?

For the vendor, this doesn't matter, but for the user, I recommend running a steel wire or steel cable through the two small center holes and tie to it that way.

–B.G.–

[michael levi]

For sure, but when I first opened this thread I thought the weight was going to be like .3oz. What gauge ti are you using? Any chance of getting these really light?

[Bob Gross]

"weigh 19.5 grams (.68oz) each"

Isn't that what Lawson estimated? Where did 0.3 ounce come from?

–B.G.–

[michael levi]

" Where did 0.3 ounce come from?"

My dreams, white sand, small bikinis, light stakes.

[Kenda Willey]

I'd take a set.

[Stuart .]

Having trashed a Hilleberg snow and sand peg on its first use last night, I'm up for an alternative. Let me know what the decision is for holes / no holes, and whether you plan to include steel cable or similar as Bob suggests above.

[Lawson Kline]

Thanks for all the feedback : )

The weight is as low as I would be comfortably going and still putting my name on them. For these stakes I used .020" Grade 5 6AL-4V Titanium Sheet. I tested .016" which I found to be way to thin, flexible and weak. I also tested .025" which I found to be really burly and stiff. Probably the perfect blend of weight and strength.. But to be honest, I am concerned the extra 4 grams (23.5 grams/.80oz total) will turn people off…??

As far as the holes go, its kind of a catch 22. The holes give the stakes better holding power in snow and less holding power in sand. But stakes with no holes work good in snow and stakes with holes work good in sand.. So while there is a difference I can't say its huge… So I guess it depends on what your going to use them mainly for.. I had thought about doing both stakes with holes and without holes but I am not sure I want to make so many different versions especially since I plan to make larger ones as well, so I think I might go with whatever is more popular or what more people want..??

As far as cables go. I think this would be a user installed thing as everyone is going to want something different and it would really jack up the cost of the stakes.. Another option is to use my Ironwire cord or any full Dyneema type cord and double it up through the holes. This is what I do and it works great with no issues what so ever.. Let me see if I can figure out a way to take a photo of what I am talking about..

[USA Duane Hall]

Measuring SMC's against these. 1.65 oz. I'll have to calculate the footprint.
Duane

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Lawson

0.020" ~= 0.5 mm. Yeah, that's about what I used. Maybe 0.55 mm.

Now, the holes. A couple of things to consider here. A big thing is the type of snow and the overnight temperatures expected. So much depends on that. But first …

Some basic physics. Snow will bond to the surface of aluminium – actually to the very thin layer of aluminium oxide. It will bond very well in fact. Translation: you may need a sledge hammer to get the stakes out in the morning if the snow was at all near melting in the late afternoon. They may be rock solid!

It's all very well to say you can use an ice axe, but we don't carry ice axes when XC skiing. You can stomp on the top edge with a (ski) boot, but you risk crumpling the edge of the aluminium. That bond can be really strong.

So we move to titanium, for TWO reasons. The first is that Ti alloy is stronger than aluminium. It is denser too, but the greater strength means you can use a thinner gauge. The second reason for using Ti is that it does NOT bond to snow the same way. It will stick slightly, but not rock solid. Provided you insert the anchor at the correct angle (and you would be silly to not do this), then the Ti anchor will hold very well – just as well. But a slight tap can break the bond and the Ti stake can then be extracted fairly easily.

Now, what happens when you put those holes in? Well, if the snow is at -15 C, nothing. Big deal. But if the snow was slightly wet when you camped – and that happens a lot in Oz, then the snow can freeze overnight through the holes. That makes the stake extremely hard to get out, usually needing an ice axe or worse. The thing is, you just don't need that anchoring through the holes bit if you put the stake in correctly.

OK, cables through the holes. Beware the sharp edges on cut Ti sheet!!! Read When Things Go Wrong for some real-life graphic descriptions of what cut Ti sheet can do to Spectra! Cut right through!

Steel cable would be OK, or aluminium eyelets or pop rivets through the holes if you want to use synthetic string. I do the latter: it's much lighter. Then I use a loop of 200 (or 300) lb Spectra fishing line through the holes, with little Ti wire hooks. The fishing line is quite strong enough for extraction, and the loops weight very little.

heers

[Bob Gross]

"Measuring SMC's against these. 1.65 oz."

My 6-hole SMC aluminum is 9.4 inches long is 1.1 oz.

Strange.

–B.G.–

[USA Duane Hall]

My SMC's are 11.25" to 11.50" long depending on amount the top is hammered down by rocks. :) 1.50" wide.
Duane

[Jeff Gerke]

I would be interested in a set.

[Lawson Kline]

So to all the people that are interested. Do you want holes or no holes?

As Roger said, the holes do help the stakes to freeze in place but can be problematic to remove in wet snow conditions. So depending on how you look at it, the holes can be a good thing or can be a bad thing. One thing I did find is stakes with no holes work alot better in soft sugar sand. In softer dirt/soils, there is no difference either way..

Let me post some more photos of stakes I have made. You tell me what you like and don't like… as feedback would be great.

Thanks again,
Lawson

[Ken Larson]

Two other anchors to think about…..again Alpine Designed.

SMC Snow Anchor

Model #: 164000 (small)
164100 (large) UIAA Certified
Material: High Quality Aluminum
Finish: Natural
Dimensions: small: 7.5” x 4.48”
large: 10.25” x 5.98”
Weight: 7.2 oz. (211 g)
10 oz. ( 296g)

Like the SMC I Pickets, the finish is “natural” resulting in a more
secure placement than comparable powder-coated or anodized anchors and
flukes. The angle of the 1/8” diameter steel cable harness attachment enables
the Snow Anchor to dive deeper when loaded, piling up snow ahead of it as
it sets into place, while the holes provide a good bite on the snow. Bigger is
sometimes better, so if you want maximum holding power in extreme conditions
or have a condo-sized mountaineering tent, then a large Snow Anchor may be
your best choice.

[Jeff Gerke]

I think I would lean towards having holes but I would buy some either way. Is there anyway you could do both?

[BlackHatGuy]

No holes for me.

[David Ure]

Holes for me. Works great in the sand.

[James Couch]

Holes are not needed, in fact they are detrimental in all cases. The reduce the surface area, in soft sand or snow the stake (fluke) will not perform well. The surface area is reduced. A properly designed and deployed snow or sand fluke will perform like a kite and 'sail' deeper into the snow or sand and not pull out. The holes will also make the fluke more difficult to remove. Holes are drilled in climbing flukes not to increase security, but to reduce weight.

[James Couch]

Curious – what is the weight without holes?

[David Ure]

"Holes are not needed, in fact they are detrimental in all cases."

My experience is that the sand moves through the holes, holding the stake better.

[Kenda Willey]

I vote for holes. While I've never used stakes with holes, it makes sense to me that they would hold better in the sand.

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