What is Capilene?

[Greg Mihalik]

Capilene is polyester.

What makes it different from any other polyester, beside the fact that it is a name registered by Patagonia?

(I'm looking for a technical answer on what makes it unique…I know You love it, and there is nothing better….)

Edit: The Technical pursuit can be followed Here.

Moral, environmental, and other issues are resolved below.

[Stephen M]

It made from Petroleum thats hand pumped out of the ground by a hippy :-)

[Brad Rogers]

The weave of the fabric is different than many others. I don't like the tight weave of cap 1 but prefer the looser mesh like weave of cap 2. They also generally offer great construction quality and a good fit Technichly though the raw material is the same. I like Patagonia stuff but it is over priced.

[James holden]

some cap (cap4) is powerdry, made by polartec

and honestly for those its not really different functionally from any of my MEC T2 versions … except it costs double the price

thats "branding" and "marketing" for ya

;)

[Dustin Short]

Eric, I agree with you but there's also a "convenience" factor hear in the US…namely pat cap4 is the only option without going through some funky group buy thing….Otherwise I'd have a t2 ;)

[James holden]

us folks who loiter around the MEC think that the T2 will drop again in price to a point where "resistance is futile" for another BPL group buy

they arent clearing them out very fast at all … if the price does go down again, itll be in the next few weeks

;)

[Matthew Black]

The fibers had channels in them to permit the otherwise hydrophobic polyester to wick moisture away via capillary action.

I don't know that this is how current designs work and there are plenty of alternatives out there compared to the bygone days of only Lifa or Capilene for synthetic underwear.

[chris smead]

I previously stayed away from capilene because it absorbed/amplified my stank.
However I'm super impressed with the recent changes. It fits me better, it's a little lighter, and that polygene odor treatment really seems to work for me.
2 favorite pieces:
-Cap4 hoody: The power dry HE keeps me warm, yet breathes well. All for 8 oz.
-Cap2 SS: Acts like a T-shirt when it's hot, yet is just thick enough to add some core warmth when worn under layers. My previous T (arcteryx phase sl SS) was just too thin for that.

I echo the others comments about price though…I wish it was cheaper.

[Rusty Beaver]

It's probably not fair just to simply say that it's overpriced. There's more to it than just an expensive shirt with a label. The deeper technical answer is one some don't won't to hear. They will vehemently argue/deny it every time with little to no basis.

Part of that shirt price goes for protection of the very places backpackers enjoy: Natural environments. The company gave $22 million over the course of ~10 yrs to protect the places we claim to love. Some of the money goes to support cotton farmers who don't spray the crap out of the place with various poisons that wreck havoc on that place we claim to love, nature….poisons affecting the places we live…poisons that eventually end up in the bodies of humans…you and I, and your daughters and grandsons, and their kids. Some of the money goes to bailing people out of jail who are protesting activities that none of us want in our backyard. Why would we want this stuff in other peoples backyards?

It goes much deeper than that, of course. Perhaps we could be a bigger part of a positive difference in the world if we looked at more than just a small corner of a large picture. And no, I'm not just talking about Patagonia here…

Thurs night soapbox. Sorry to all whom this offends.

[Mike R]

Now it's just a name for their base layers. Like others have mentioned their Capilene 3 is now PowerDry by Polartec. PowerDry is awesome stuff, works very well for me. MEC [i.e. REI of Canada] sells MEC branded PowerDry base layers for 50% of what Patagonia sells them for [exact same material] … and they're made locally too. I'm all-over PowerDry, best baselayer material I've ever come across. I'm a huge Patagonia fan btw.

[John Hillyer]

A nice thread on the Cap 4 Hoody: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=67683

It's an exceptional lightweight garment that is warmer for the weight and wicks better than anything else that I have come across. Unfortunately, the fit pinches me under the armpits like everything Patagonia that I have tried.

[James holden]

folks … i will take MECs record on the environment against any other company anyday

they give 1% back to the planet, actually PUBLISH their accountability reports (unlike alot of companies), contribute to many local outdoor and environmental causes, etc …

you can read this and their reports here …

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/AboutMEC/Sustainability.jsp

i will put them again patagucci anyday … without the premium

also note that currently their T2/T3 line with polartec powerdry is made in CANADA … at half the list price of the cap4/R1

it is my understanding that the T2s are being cleared out as they are using newer material … HE perhaps? or polygiene? … well find out

;)

[Dustin Short]

Patagonia also does some not so great things in third world countries under the guise of ecological stewardship. Namely they've bought up tons of land in South America and have cordoned it off from the locals and development. Generally I think this is a good thing for preserving wilderness, the problem is nothing is actually wilderness. It has all been inhabited by people and this reeks of western minded colonialism. Conservation has a long tradition of being used to oust native peoples from their homelands for the recreation of european descended populations. Rural Chileans actually have a strong distrust of the norteamericanos who founded Patagonia and Black Diamond. So it's not all green leaves and rainbows when it comes to their corporate record. Still I think they are acting in good spirits, their execution just is just heavy-handed and inconsiderate of the local socialeconomic situation.

[Rusty Beaver]

Hi Dustin,

I'd be interested in learning more about this. Can you provide some references?

Thanks!

[Nick Gatel]

First, capilene is good stuff… but they keep changing it.

And who are we to judge them or any company as moral stewards of the environment?

We who have many backpacks, when we only really need one. Same goes for shelters, sleeping bags/quilts, clothing, shoes, stoves, etc., etc.

We who are driving/flying to CCC to show off our gear. I wonder how much fuel will be wasted on that endeavor.

We who only get 500 miles out of a single pair of shoes, when a pair of good leather boots will last for decades and can be repaired/re-soled.

We who have disposable gear like DriDucks, plastic bags and groundsheets.

We who buy gear of dubious quality, from unknown manufacturers via the Internet to save a couple bucks. Read all the threads on knock-off products. How do you know these sources are "green?" Or does green not matter when we want to save money? How selfish of us.

Most UL backpackers seem to be conspicuous consumers… oh, that is good for the environment!! I am one of them, and admit it without guilt. So I am not going to condemn any company for not being "green."

I do take issues with companies who try to gain market share be declaring they are green. I prefer they be green without advertising it and not trying to put themselves on a moral pedestal.

My thoughts on green: Patagonia, shame on you. But I still will buy their stuff if it is good.

I don't know if MEC still prints paper catalogs, but they used to. That isn't green behavior by a green company, IMO.

Most of us are just as bad as the companies we criticize — we may be worse — our demand creates the marketplace. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[L H]

I think that Patagonia is a good company and I applaud their monetary contributions to the environment and related causes. However, that philanthropy is NOT the reason for their premium price points.

Patgonia's "1% for the Planet" program donates 1% of revenue, or 10% of profit, whichever is higher. So for a $100 garment, ONE dollar of that price is resulting from their philanthropy. Do away with the program and the price is now $99.

Not throwing stones at Patagonia. Just clarifying that the premum prices are not driven in any meaningful amount by their philanthropy.

[James holden]

I don't know if MEC still prints paper catalogs, but they used to. That isn't green behavior by a green company, IMO.

MEC has no paper catalogs since 2011 nor do they give any disposable bags with any purchases ….

im sure theres still other nasty stuff they do somewhere …

however theres no "MEC premium" … and while they do post up about the stuff they do on their blog and fbook … they dont exactly say "pay more for us because were green and dont buy our jackets!!!"

you could in fact consider the MEC gear swap which mec runs for free as either a source of pollution or a very good way to "recycle" gear

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/AboutMEC/Sustainability/AccountabilityReport/Operations.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198674182970

OUR PAPER USE
After 40 years, we printed our last paper catalogue in 2011. While the catalogue was a huge part of MEC, it was also a huge contributor to our carbon footprint. At 94%, the catalogues represented the vast majority of our paper use, and 8% of our carbon footprint.

In 2012, we decreased our paper use by 90% from 2011 levels (to 26,870 kg from 295,997 kg). Total paper use contributed 59 tCO2e to our total carbon footprint. This is a huge reduction, and something we’re very proud of.

FSC AND PCR PAPER
As a Markets Initiative signatory, we've committed to using ancient forest-friendly fibres and reducing the amount of paper we use. We also committed to purchasing 90% of paper from Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) certified sources.

While we’re committed to achieving our target of sourcing 90% of our paper from FSC-certified sources, we haven’t been able to find receipt and continuous form feed paper that meets those criteria. The same is true for PCR content. Our target is to ensure that at lease 70% of our paper is 85% PCR or more, but we’re struggling to find receipt and continuous form feed paper with PCR content. We’ll continue looking for alternatives to our existing paper sources. Where available, we’ve moved towards electronic billing for our utilities. Moving forward, we’ll look into providing e-receipts as an alternative to paper receipts, and we’ll conduct a business case analysis for establishing a near-paperless office.

PAPER USE BY TYPE (%, KG)

perhaps patacucci post their paper usage online?

;)

[Delmar O’Donnell]

What does any of the latter part of this thread have to do with Capilene?

Let's get back on track.

EDIT: Oops, I see the OP has abandoned this thread to ideological warfare, and started another about the technical discussion. I'll go there, as I just can't take these "king of the moral hill" discussions.

[James holden]

What does any of the latter part of this thread have to do with Capilene?

the patagucci "moral" premium you pay … for a "better company with better ethics"

;)

[Rusty Beaver]

LH,

Please don't take this the wrong way but I believe you are over simplifying this, or, as I mentioned earlier, viewing a small corner of a large picture.

Nick,

Good post! However, how is Patagonia, or any other company who takes a genuine stance, supposed to bring awareness to these important issues if they don't talk about it?

Out of curiosity, have either of you two (or anyone else in this thread for that matter) read "Let My People Go Surfing"?

[Dustin Short]

Rusty,

Chouinard has been very good about keeping his involvement quiet but he is long-time partner with Doug Tompkins (The North Face founder) who has been more public about his conservation. Also remember that Kris Tompkins, Doug's wife, is a former CEO of Patagonia. You can further see the personal connection between Tompkins and Chouinard in the film 180 degrees South.

You can read about Tompkins more here:
http://www.coha.org/20349/

I want to clarify, I think what Patagonia and all the major companies that use their wealth in some meaningful, if small, way to better the world and environment are doing an great job. From an American perspective they are admirable. However their involvement in other nations tends to be very "american" without the cultural sensitivity needed to effect long lasting change. When american's buy up thousands of acres of foreign land, then donate it for a national park…that's great for the park. It's not great for changing the hearts of a people. Instead they'll always view that land as stolen from them by the outsiders in collusion with the government. It's their land to care for or destroy, not some rich white dude's decision of how best to act as stewards. For a developing nation that needs to exploit natural resources to compete in a global economy, it can be actually used to ensure poverty. Conservation is not the end all be all to environmental problems.

Completely unrelated to Patagonia but the concept is discussed in depth in "The Myth of Wild Africa"

[Nick Gatel]

On track… Capilene is good stuff. I have several iterations of it.

I have read "let my people go surfing." Not impressed. I am sure you can find many negative book reviews via Google.

Patagonia is a "for profit" entity, and as such, pays corporate income taxes on its profits, which makes it more difficult to compete against companies that do not pay income taxes.

Co-ops like MEC and REI avoid corporate income taxes by paying out profits as dividends, and I doubt many members declare their dividends as income and pay taxes on them. I am not an income tax advocate, but think everyone should pay their fair share. Of course the members of MEC and REI could vote to change this and pay income taxes on the profits before dividend distribution. Of course most green and righteous people don't stick to their principles if it hits their wallet.

Just for fun, you might like to read about Green Greed. And yes, the taxpayers of California have and will continue to subsidize Patagonia's solar plant at their headquarters in Ventura. Taxpayers who can't afford Patagonia gear or even afford to go backpacking. And Yvonne is a multi-millionaire. But he makes good gear. Enough pontificating. You good folks can continue the debate over the weekend, I'll be out backpacking.

[Ian]

I think this is an interesting topic but I'll post my response about Let My People Go Surfing in Chaff so the topic can get back to the OP.

[Jerry Adams]

hmmm

pay tax on REI dividends?

I always figured it was just a partial refund of what you paid, which you didn't get a tax credit for, so you shouldn't have to pay tax

Regardless of the fact it uses the same name "dividend" as what corporations pay to stockholders and you clearly should have to pay tax on

REI "has advantage" in that it doesn't pay tax on profits?

REI has a disadvantage that it wasn't started with a bunch of capital that has to be paid back with dividends. For profit company gets to raise capital which is huge advantage.

[HkNewman]

Capilene is polyester.

What makes it different from any other polyester, beside the fact that it is a name registered by Patagonia?

Capilene is a polyester baselayer chemically treated like just about every other baselayer to wick moisture faster than untreated polyester. I forget which "large" magazine wrote that only Marmot's Dri-clime used structure to wick … but that was several years ago, so maybe that has changed. Also not sure if all the proprietary chemistry is public.

Disclosure: I prefer Capilene-1 as a base layer since it wicks better for my skin type but where my pack contacts it, the thin fabric abrades quickly. Hence the need for a shirt worn on top to protect it (wish they'd make a polyester shirt with nylon panels on the shoulder/back where the pack constantly contacts).

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