Sticker bushes!! Help!!

[Jennifer Mitol]

So I did my first real desert hike this past weekend, to Big Bend Ranch State Park in west Texas. Beautiful, barren, and full of so many things to shred my gear!!!

Advice given to me at the trailhead? If it doesn't bite, sting, cut or scratch you, it's a rock.

Anyway, one person's Klymit pad bit the dust, and my trekking pole handles were literally full of little thorns when I got back. When temps are mild (lows in the mid 30s) I don't bring a CCF pad – which is only 1/8" anyway – but now I'm wondering if my desert hiking needs to include one no matter the temps (I sleep on an exped downmat UL7) if I want to preserve it.

I'm using to hiking in far less harsh areas…pine needles, little rocks, that sort of thing. This place will cut you to pieces! Any advice from you desert folk on taking care of my precious, fragile gear in such an unforgiving place??

[Desert Dweller]

I'm reminded of the first puncture I had thirty years ago….when I backed into an agave!
One develops a lot more awareness of ones surroundings and respect for the "furniture". I use more protection underneath, ie polycro plus a thin GG pad under my inflatables and take much more time choosing bed sites. The same for cat holes. When hiking assume any and every plant is armed and sharp. Wear clothing that is appropriate to protect from sun and stickers. Never just set your pack down on anything. Sandy washes are a good bet but still can contain goose heads stickers. Footwear is often more robust from necessity, thorns and rocks do not lend themselves well to trail runners if yer not extra careful with foot placement. I grew up in the forest of the northeast and northwest, I thought I'd die when I got here. My husband grew up here and regularly bushwhacks through cat claw and white thorn, he has separate "old" clothes for that, and I don't go on those trips often, I'm a trail lover and rarely bushwack unless it's in the higher elevation forest areas. And those are fraught with rocks and boulders.

[HkNewman]

Yeah, the Big Bend area can be nice this time of year but the SP trails can be overgrown with ocotillo at torso length and prickly pear at leg level. You keep your eyes peeled for sharp stuff but it still gets you in the end.

Helps if you know which trails are overgrown with spiny plants, so maybe that's something that needs to be added to desert trip reports?

For tops a snag-resistant top can help (I have a MH "eX-tend" base layer that's almost snag proof – sadly discontinued but there may other tough shirts out there). For pants, getting hit with spines is the name of the game. My Granite Gear sil and zPacks cuben in past trips rubbed against the spines with only the sil showing a slight scratch but think that's knock on wood.

Chris Zimmer made me an almost all-Dyneema pack for those times I'll be in overgrown areas that I know about (seems more scratch resistant, though not thorn-proof). My last trip into Saguaro NP near Tucson a prickly pear sent it's spines right through the zipper of my ankle zips, I've also thought about snake gaiters paired with nyco shorts. Then a Christmas tree cactus (leptocalis?) put large and small spines though a windproof liner glove – maybe time to go back to leather gloves?

Add: Agave lechugia can be the worse however since it can become infected easily.

ed: add

[M B]

After using my 18" pad for a sit pad on one trip, I had to literally feel over every square inch of it for thorns and cactus needles embedded in it. I didnt actually sit on anything, but the ground was literally covered in old thorns and needles. Only by stretching between hands while feeling with thumbs could I feel all of the embedded and broken off ones.

After at least an hour of carefully doing this, I didnt use my 1/8" to sit on again for the rest of the trip. I also put my maps and raingear between my xlite and the pad just incase I missed something.

The xlite also stayed rolled up, wrapped in clothing and raingear , deep in my pack with my clothes and quilt, just incase I should bump into something that penetrated the pack bag.

Since then I quit bringing the 1/8 in conditions like that. If I cant sit on it, Ill just use maps and raingear under my pad. The cuben groundsheet and cuben rain skirt are two pretty tough layers.

holes in anything else can be patched with tape.

[Greg Mihalik]

"The cuben groundsheet … pretty tough layers."

Saturate a bathroom towel, lay it in the tub, place the cuben on top, a dark t-shirt on top of the cuben, and stand on it.

You might be surprised.

My .75 ground sheet died in one 10 day trip on the JMT. No thorns, just rock and pine needles.

[Steven McAllister]

The more experience you get hiking in those kind of areas, the less problem you have.

You tend to focus on your path more and take breaks only in certain areas.

I bring a Large Tyvek ground cloth and large 1/8" closed cell foam pad. These go under my bug bivy. I do use a blow-up pad and I do carry a patch kit.

I use the bug bivy because of scorpions and I keep my shoes inside it so I can put them on when I get up to pee or make camp.

Long pants.
UL gators.

And for sun, long sleeves and wide brimmed hat.

A tarp for night shelter and for naps on hot days so I'm not hiking in the middle of the day.

[Leigh Baker]

LOL Jen, why is it that I thought of you when I read the title to this post?
Gotta love the desert!

[Alex H]

Yep, awareness of your surroundings is maybe the first and most important skill. Shredding of the lower legs is pretty standard and you get used to it after awhile, even with long pants on. I do wear a heavier shoe (Keen Voyaguer) for a bit more protection even though I have had a thorn go right through the bottom of the sole.

I also have all dyneema packs to fend off the thorns and haven't had any tears for years. Never have a sleeping pad or anything else on the outside of the pack that can get poked by anything. That includes platypus water containers, only hard plastic water bottles in the outside pockets.

I have been using a cut down ridgerest under my inflatable since 2008 and have not had a single leak since doing so. Still careful about checking the ground first though. My thoughts on pads here;

http://40yearsofwalking.wordpress.com/2010/08/30/current-thoughts-on-sleeping-pads/

The Big Bend area is really a great area to walk, just have to work on your desert rat skills some.

[M B]

"My .75 ground sheet died in one 10 day trip on the JMT. No thorns, just rock and pine needles."

Cuben doesnt die, it just gets taped.

Mine is 1.0-1.1 and usually has a layer of 0.7oz mesh under it. So many people criticize the extra wt of the mesh under the cuben in the hexamid,without giving consideration to the amount of protection it adds. I think it adds quite a bit on rocks.

I have read a few people say 0.74 cuben go punctured.

I personally have had an errant small rock thrown by a boy go THRU my hexamids .51 canopy. In one side (~3/4" hole)and out the other (6" long slit). Tape fixed it fine, but reveals how fragile the light wt stuff really is.

If I was depending on a groundsheet for a shelter (attached) without the hexamid mesh underneath, 1.41 would be a good weight. Virtually indestructible when used for a stake bag. When think about it, my floor weighs 1.7oz really right now.

[Justin Baker]

If they start overgrowing into trails or you are hiking off trail, consider some tall gaiters.

[Desert Dweller]

We often take garden clippers with us and trim trail. We are both ex USFS employees and have decades of trail work experience so we are used to and know how to do the work properly so it will last years and the trimming is done in a manner that enhances the individual plant and leaves no ugly scars. And yes leather gloves are a must. Also carrying a short plastic comb to be used for sticker and needle removal from clothes and skin is advisable. Tiny spines can be removed with tweezers or duct tape.

[Jennifer Mitol]

So will tyvek be enough under my pad to protect it against wayward thorns, or should I bring a CCF pad as well? And is 1/8" under my cuben floored innernet be enough?

I am assuming that even though there are no bugs, it's a good idea for a desert noob such as myself to bring my net?? I decidedly do NOT want to wake to tarantulas, scorpions, or snakes finding warmth in with me in my cozy quilt. Or am I overreacting? I'd love to be able to use my new trailstar or something….

Thanks guys!

[Desert Dweller]

I use a polycro or tyvek under my Hexamid then the 1/8 GG under my inflatable. Yes, nets are a good idea in the desert in the spring, summer, fall, but winter there is not so much activity of insects and scorpions and reptiles. My husband loves his Hexamid as it has the net interior, makes us both feel better about sleeping on the ground.

[Alex H]

For me late fall through early spring in the desert never a tent. Usually just roll out the tyvek and the double pad and enjoy the stars. Haven't carried a tent in the desert for decades.

[Steven McAllister]

The only worry requiring a bug net is in scorpion country. They are attracted to warm places. Shoes and sleeping bags/quilts are a prime destination.

Their sting can be very painful and last for days.

I wouldn't worry too much about snakes or tarantulas, well maybe snakes a little, they can be attracted to heat on cool nights.

I have woken up in Southern Utah with a black widow in my bag, so they can also be a concern.

I never carried any shelter or bug net when I was young, at least until I learned a few lessons:-)

[Gerald L]

I usually have a separate kit devoted to my desert travels. Thick pants, boots, leather gloves, cheap tent, old school thermarest closed cell mattress, etc. This way I won't shed a tear by thrashing my precious UL gear that is better suited for a 'friendlier' environment. Site selection is important and I tend to sleep in sandy washes (weather dependent of course). I used to enjoy hiking in sandals and once had a large spine completely penetrate the bottom of my thick soled Chaco that could only be removed using pliers.

[Anonymous]

UHMWPE film has pretty high puncture resistance–probably the highest for a non woven, film form.

But, it's pretty slippery and for that reason is not ideal. That and i haven't seen any buy by foot or yard stuff thinner than 3 mil. 3 mil stuff is somewhat heavy, about 2 oz/yd2.

Not very helpful is it? I'm trying, got my thinking cap on… (this may take awhile)

[Valerie E]

Jen, welcome to the Southwest!

The good news is that you'll adjust very quickly, and within a few weeks, your mind/body will "naturally" avoid all those sharp, barbed things around you. One of my friends from the Northeast, after hiking here for a week, suggested that we change our license plates to read "The Prickly State"…but if he'd been here longer, he'd've stopped noticing.

During your adjustment period, you may damage some gear (so you may want to use all your least-favorite stuff at first), but once you get used to your new environment, you'll be able to go back to using you UL stuff without damaging it. No one I know uses anything more than a ground sheet under their inflatables, and they don't seem to get leaks very often (again, site selection is something you'll learn quickly!).

I know lots of people who "cowboy camp" year-round in the desert, and incidents with scorpions/snakes are rare (once in 20 years, my husband was stung in his sleeping bag; he smashed the scorpion with his fist, rolled over, and went back to sleep). I'm an easterner, so usually use a net, but clearly I'm just a candy-*ss. ;~)

The more "interesting" time will be when you have to adjust to summer heat and no water availability… you'll have to carry tons, learn the art of good water-caching, and generally put up with some level of dehydration sometimes. But you'll find yourself adjusting to that, too. We humans are very adaptable!

[Jennifer Mitol]

You guys are all great – thanks for the advice!

The trail I did was very overgrown so hiking was nasty as far as the prickly things…but what worried me was the actual camping. My pack is pretty solid and held up very well to some gnarly bushwhacking we had to do to get to water (yeah Zimmerbuilt and his awesome XPac!!) But wow was I nervous setting up my cuben duomid with the cuben innernet and putting down my ridiculously expensive downmat UL7. I wouldn't have thought too much about stray needles except for the guy who shredded his klymit pad the first night. And the several I picked out of my skin on the drive home.

Two of the more experienced guys carried Z rests WITH their inflatables, but they also carried 60# packs and said I had to use heavy boots. So I wasn't sure how much to pay attention to their advice.

So I'm thinking for my big bend trip in January I'll give my new trailstar a go, sans inner, and sleep on some tyvek. Any thoughts about that?? I'll not worry about tarantulas or rattlers or scorpions, but no one has really made me feel any better about needing to bring something else to put under my inflatable.

Merry Christmas!!

[Anonymous]

Sounds like you are really concerned with protecting that pad. In that case, i would say try out the UHMWPE film at the 3 mil thickness–if you cut to just slightly larger than your pad, it won't weigh much. I bought some for fairly cheap, though the price of shipping was kind of high.

As far as making it less slippery, there are some things you can do, especially if you're into making or modifying gear. You could sew a few strips of ul nylon, like Nobul onto the top at the top and bottom ends. Then you could very lightly sand (with medium to coarse sp) the bottom some.

Some silicone glue dots on the bottom of your pad would also help out with the above some. That's what i did with a BAIAC pad i use to use, worked well.

3 mil UHMWPE film should have a bit more puncture resistance than tyvek homewrap. If you're interested, i can do a quick test on this tomorrow. I have some homewrap and i have some 3 mil UHMWPE film i can poke test and see which requires more pressure to get through. Their weights are pretty close.

As far as legs and arms, if i was in this situation i would use some cut protective arm sleeves. I have 3 kinds, pure dyneema, pure kevlar, and a dyneema blend. The last sleeves are big enough to go over much of my legs too.

[Valerie E]

I think it's enough to just be really, really careful before putting down your Synmat. You could just lightly run your hand over the area that will be under the pad — believe me, if there are any thorns, you'll feel them!

I forgot to warn you about footwear. Most of the time, your UL stuff will be fine, but sometimes it won't. For example there are some desert grasses that have amazingly sharp seed pods that break off and lodge in the mesh uppers of your shoes. Shockingly painful until you pull them out. But I've only encountered those a few times, and only in limited areas (YMMV). Hate 'em, though!

If you're bushwhacking, however, it's a whole different ballgame — there are many, many painful plants — shindaggers (amole), all manner of short, prickly cacti, Spanish bayonet, jagged sotol (desert spoon)… all of which could wreak havoc with unprotected feet, ankles, shins, etc. For those days, you may well want something more protective (maybe something like Lowa Renegades — one of the lightest all-leather hiking boots available).

[Desert Dweller]

That's what I use, the Renegades. And being very flexible on bushwhacking routes and going around mesquite groves and ocotillo stands, prickly pear clumps and the dreaded teddy bear cholla!

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