“Faux-dini”: 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 – Initial Review and Sourcing

[Kattt]

The legality is not complicated. Morality does not always go hand in hand with legality and that is where it gets complicated.

[David Thomas]

>"Buying counterfeit goods is illegal. Buying an otherwise legal second hand jacket from the thrift store is legal. How is this complicated?"

Really?!? Can you cite a case where a consumer was arrested for buying a counterfeit item? Unauthorized use of trademarks, copyrights and patents is illegal in some cases (and "fair use" in others), but other than those trafficking in commercial quantities, I'm drawing a blank on anyone being fined or doing time for possessing a faux-Gucci handbag. At most, it might be seized at a customs checkpoint at the border.

And then on the legal/illegal question:

At times, it was illegal to house escaped slaves.

It is currently illegal to marry one's life partner in many places if you aren't the approved mix of genders.

It can be illegal and a capital offense to refuse to kill other humans, if ordered to do so in the military.

Legality and morality are only loosely connected.

[Ian]

David,

Yes the laws (state, federal, and municipal) with few exceptions are written against the supply chain and not the buyer. There are eighty-something federal judicial districts, fifty states, the territories/protectorates, and countless cities which all have a voice in how the law is written and/or enforced. I can barely speak on the enforcement priorities of the three districts and state I've worked in much less the thousands of other jurisdictions I haven't as they change from day to day.

Yes, in all likelihood and absent any larger conspiracy to traffic, the worst a consumer is probably looking at is forfeiting the counterfeit good. But make no mistake, this garment is a known counterfeit and importing it into the U.S. is illegal.

The only reason this market exists is because people like you equate the fact that you're not going to jail as justification to do it. It'd be nice if they would go after the demand side as well but proving the mens rea would admittedly be extremely difficult unless the statute was written in a way to be strict liability which would be unfair to the defendant in this case.

And David, while I don't have personal knowledge of a buyer going to jail, I do have personal knowledge of how counterfeit goods fund terrorist organizations in some cases and criminal organizations in most cases. My knowledge and experience with this is why I'm on this crusade. If you want to ignore this and support the black market anyways, then that's on you but realize that there is much much more in play here than trademark infringement.

P.S. I'd normally call you out on playing the slavery/gay rights card but since I went Taliban I guess we're even.

[Ken Miller]

I can't figure out if this thread needs a Dr. Phil or a Judge Judy intervention.

I am so anxious for the Sunday Night Football Bronco vs Chiefs game, I read the whole thing.

Thankfully it's snowing in Colorado and we'll soon be able to proceed with winter fun.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

> My knowledge and experience with this is why I'm on this crusade.

Ian vs. The Entire Orient.

Good luck with that! Let us know when you've rid the world of those evil family enterprises in China, gotten the East to conform to Western law, and made the world safe for the wearing of approved rain gear. We will raise a crucifix (you said crusade, right?) over the heathen lands when you have subdued them–legally, of course.

Way out of line to lay moral turpitude on David ("people like you…") for fact-checking your assertion that *buying* a counterfeit Chinese item was illegal. Way, way out of line.

[Anonymous]

"Thankfully it's snowing in Colorado and we'll soon be able to proceed with winter fun."

Here on BPL, this IS winter fun. ;0)

[Anonymous]

" I do have personal knowledge of how counterfeit goods fund terrorist organizations"

This is a blank spot in my knowledge base, Ian. Are you able, and willing, to share a few specific examples? I know some outfits make money in the drug trade, but there the goods are not counterfeit. Bad for repeat business.

[Sam Farrington]

Dave T,
Re: "Can you cite a case where a consumer was arrested for buying a counterfeit item?"

Prosecutions for receiving stolen property are common, and often result in prison time. Then there are civil, as well as criminal wrongs that can result in money judgments a lot worse than probation or a short stretch at the county farm. If the judgments are based on fraudulent conduct, they are not even dischargeable in bankruptcy in the US(like college loans). Seem to recall a number of cases where purchasers of downloaded copyrighted music were held responsible to pay big judgments. There may even have been some criminal convictions, but memory fades.

And: "It can be illegal and a capital offense to refuse to kill other humans, if ordered to do so in the military."

Not sure about it being a 'capital' offense, but otherwise yes, and it can also be a capital offense if the order is obeyed. As we say up heah, 'between a rock and a hahd place.'

It's all part of being a citizen in an oligarchy/plutocracy. But don't worry, it will self-destruct eventually, but that will be a lot worse than slavery and subjugation. Cheep, cheep (sound of Chicken Little).

Now let's see, what was that again about the Houdini-like windshirt.

[Ian]

Left this up long enough for everyone who was interested to read.

[Ian]

"Way out of line to lay moral turpitude on David ("people like you…") for fact-checking your assertion that *buying* a counterfeit Chinese item was illegal. Way, way out of line."

Delmar, you look like you could use a hug. Bring it in big guy.

[Jerry Adams]

I prefer the clear crystaline blue meth

made by the chemist Heisenberg

[Anonymous]

"Meth batch B was smuggled in from Mexico and is a result of Cartel violence."

The Cartel angle I understand quite well. I was thinking more about designated terrorist groups funding their operations by counterfeiting goods. It is well known that they are involved in the drug trade in both Afghanistan and Lebanon, to mention 2 countries. What I'm looking for is information on instances where they are funding operations by moving counterfeit products.

[Ian]

Left the rest up long enough for those who were interested to read.

First hit from my google search (not the case I was referring to above):

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/business/worldbusiness/12iht-fake.4569452.html?_r=0

[And E]

EDIT: Oops! Looks like Ian beat me to it while I was typing/googling.
***

Actually, I've read somewhere, can't remember if it was the news or a Cracked.com article (but cracked does better fact checking than the news these days) that many times, counterfeit items are used to funnel money for the drug trade/terror groups.

actually, it was the NY Times and other news:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/business/worldbusiness/12iht-fake.4569452.html?_r=0

Just some interesting/fun/terrifying reads from Cracked.com:

regarding breaking the law:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19450_6-laws-youve-broken-without-even-realizing-it.html

and copyrighted items (although some are no longer applicable):
http://www.cracked.com/article_20066_5-everyday-things-you-wont-believe-are-copyrighted.html

And the extent of Chinese counterfeiting:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19742_the-5-most-insane-examples-chinese-counterfeiting.html

[Roger Caffin]

> the worst a consumer is probably looking at is forfeiting the counterfeit good.
I understand that selling goods which breach copyright is illegal in the USA (but probably not in China in practice), but I am not aware of anything in the copyright laws which makes buying the windshirt illegal. The fundamental point of the copyright (& trademark) laws is to reserve to the copyright owner the profits from that item.
But maybe USA law is different.

> But make no mistake, this garment is a known counterfeit and importing it into
> the U.S. is illegal.
Um … should making that judgement (known counterfeit) be reserved to due process and a court? I was not aware that a civilian could declare something illegal all by himself. (This does not cover 'reasonable grounds to believe…' but that is a different matter.)
But maybe USA law is different.

Cheers

[Ian]

To all,

I'm disappointed in myself that I've allowed this thread to aggravate me the way it did. We are all products of our experiences and it's not fair for me to assume that we should all be on the same sheet of music. I truly do realize that most of you and 99% of my countrymen consider IPR violations to be as serious as jaywalking. But the reality is that if you saw someone get hit by a car, you'd probably look at jaywalking differently. That's where I am at with IPR because I've had a couple opportunities to see its sinister side.

I've said everything I can possibly offer on this topic. I hope that if nothing else, you understand that there is more to IPR violations than the harm to the trademark owner, copyright, etc.

Happy trails all. I'm done here.

[David Thomas]

Ian,

I like IP laws – well, at least the ones of 50+ years ago – when there was more of a balance between the term of patent protection to encourage R&D and eventually letting the invention be used freely by others. Back when the Patent Office actually reviewed applications instead of letting it all get sorted out in the courts. And one really had to describe how the invention was made or how the process worked and not just grab as much of an engineering realm as possible while withholding important information.

And I agree with copyright protection (during a period corresponding roughly to an artist/author's life, that isn't just corporate welfare for Disney, et al).

And I think Trademark protection is a good thing. I'm even okay with it being potentially forever. Philip Morris has spent how many millions (could it be over a billion?) promoting Malboro(TM), and someone else shouldn't be able to market cigarettes in indentical red, white and black packaging.

My response to your post was on two points:

1) A consumer buying goods with a counterfeit trademark is not going to be arrested or fined. The extent to which they have broken an enforceable rule or regulation is if they transport it through customs where it could be seized.

2) that legal versus illegal can be proxies for morality. So I gave some counter examples (based on my morals, YMMV).

I don't have any faux Gucci(TM) handbags or Hermes(TM) scarves, but based on the shear fraction of the market effected by counterfeits, I'd assume I unknowingly have bought a few counterfeit Levi's(TM), Carrhartts(TM), Columbia(TM), etc. I was filling in a few blanks in the coin collection I inherited from my grandmother on eBay when it dawned on me that if the US government could mint a coin in 1878, someone in China can do a bang-up job of it in 2011, so I stopped. Even before that occurred to me, thankfully I'd noted which ones I'd gotten from her – I liked knowing that she'd put them in the album herself 80 years ago.

I will admit to one knowing and one possible infraction on my part. The whole family was in China teaching math, science and English in an exchange program through Yale and my 7-year-old daughter wanted to buy a watch. And she liked the Mickey Mouse(C) one. Now I know that despite the authentic-looking, silvery holographic sticker on it and all the official Disney markings, nothing was contributed to Bob Iger's executive bonus. Ironically, it was the MOST iconic and least defensible use of copyright protection because if it hadn't been for Mickey Mouse(C) and Disney, maybe our copyright laws wouldn't have taken a further turn for the worse in 1998, but I let her get it.

My other possible offense was to buy Oreo cookies in an Chinese supermarket. It is certainly possible, maybe even likely, that Nabisco got no royalties. But I really wanted to know what Oreos with green-tea filling tasted like.

I deeply apologize to any families that lost loved ones to an terrorist action financed from the ill-gotten gains of that Y100 (US$16) watch. (And the US$2 cookies). I have to take Ian at his word about terrorists financing themselves by manufacturing fake Rolexes (I thought they were bigger into conflict diamonds, controlling gold-mining areas, poppy fields, cocaine production and distribution, gun running, kidnapping, highjacking ships, prostitution, and wide-spread exhortation but maybe not). If the first two sentences of this paragraph sounds sarcastic, well, they are. "Hey, Che, put down your AK-47 and that C-4 and help me design a production line for watches that is so efficient they can be sold for $10 in Times Square."?!? I'm just not seeing it. And these mysterious "public documents" that Ian can't tell us about? An even older excuse than "We need this law to defend against terrorists" is "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you." I'm not saying counterfeiters aren't criminals – they are. And they probably don't treat their workers very well. I'd like to think I would have opposed McCarthyism in the 1950's. I certainly can't support making un-named terrorists the universal boogyman of this century.

[James holden]

Anyone use the windshirt outside yet?

;)

[Franco Darioli]

What windshirt ?

[Anthony Viera]

"What's true for both counterfeit goods and illicit drugs is sooner or later you will have blood on your hands. Melodramatic but true."

Have watched Breaking Bad, can confirm.

[Jerry Adams]

this thread wouldn't have been complete without Breaking Bad reference

eric and Franco, quit trying to drift this thread back to original topic

I admit – I've played a couple illegally copied games before. I have a music CD that must have been illegally copied. I've copied vinyl onto casette – is it illegal to make a copy for yourself and listen to it or do you have to sell it?

I've heard some people that make music say they didn't mind small scale copying – more people listen to their music and this may actually stimulate more sales.

If someone does a large scale counterfeiting operation they should probably be prosecuted.

There are a couple websites that I use that are free. After a while I figure it's really useful and donate some money. PBS on radio and TV also. Maybe this is a good business model. Especially if the creator wants to make a living, cover expenses, and do something good but not get "Bill Gates" rich.

[Anonymous]

"First hit from my google search"

Thanks for the link, Ian. It's at least plausible, although the scepticism genes buried in my DNA whisper that if you want to really get support for your cause, link it to terrorism in our paranoid post 9/11 state of mind. Still, it is eminently plausible. Hizbullah is certainly not averse to that approach, and cunning enough to pull it off. Ditto Al Qaeda in the Maghreb. If it has also been proven conclusively enough to send someone to Sing Sing, as opposed to basing it on Kelly's word, that pretty much settles it. If you tell me that is the case, I'll take you at your word.

[Sharon J.]

Saw this Ted talk last night on the topic of fashion and intellectual property. Thought it might be somewhat germane to the discussion here, although I have not made any attempt to verify her claims:

[Paul Andronico]

I received my XXL wind shirt today and it fits like a US medium from my perspective. At 5' 11" and 180+ pounds, the back length is good and the fit is athletic, but the arms are an inch or two too short and the hood pulls down on the top of my head. Very breathable material compared the 2013 Houdini.

[D S]

Thanks for the sizing info, but that's not what I wanted to hear. I won't be able to fit into the XXL, so I guess I'm SOL.

[Author]

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