“Faux-dini”: 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 – Initial Review and Sourcing

[Anonymous]

DOD "The "sad, dark" world is not as broken as you think it is, nor breathlessly waiting for you to fix it."

You're right, its waiting for us, the collective to fix it, and its going to take a majority of people united.

DOD "But if you disagree, then spend your energies on actually doing something, rather than wasting your talents writing rebuttals on an internet forum."

Voting with ones wallet seems to be one of the more effective ways to affect change I think and because of this thread I've resolved to be more consistently conscious and concerned with this process. Talking openly about it on a public forum that many read is also a start, though I agree that it probably should have been brought up in another section of the forum.

DOD "Neither you nor I are changing anybody's mind about anything; we're just irritating people at this point."

You're probably right there. But as far as people being irritated, I say GOOD, this should not be an easy, comfortable and feel good issue or conversation. A man of peace that I greatly admire once said, " I come not to bring peace, but a sword". Sometimes you need to stir up the shadow side of people and society, which invariably leads to conflict of some sort, to affect change.

Perhaps you and others would join me in a think tank of how to affect positive change besides voting with ones wallet and open discussion, because I do feel a bit stuck on ideas to implement.

[Ed Biermann]

Will there be Cliff Notes available for this thread on the points relevant to the wind shirt's performance and fit?

Changing the global conscience on a backpacking website seems like a folly. You efforts could be utilized elsewhere.

Mahatma Gandhi — 'Be the change that you wish to see in the world.'

The Golden Rule – “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,

If everyone would follow these, we would all be better off. Who can't remember and follow two such simple rules? Though I admit that the Golden Rule is somewhat subjective. Some people are into some weird stuff.

Still waiting for a wind shirt with hand pockets. No chest pocket. In tall sizes too.

[Link .]

Ed, Then you wanted an Eddie Bauer Sirocco ,it has two hand pockets no chest pockets and Eddie Bauer sells tall sizes and were on sale last year for $25 but I don't know when they will be back.

[Kattt]

Faux-dini, terrorism and Gandhi are heading over to Chaff.

[Jerry Adams]

I thought that it was decided to put chaff in forums that people see when you click "recent posts" or "recent threads"? : )

Interesting how there are occasional posts related to the original post intermingled with chaff posts

[Ed Biermann]

Thanks Link. Anything available without a hood? Or at least a hood that stores away? In muted colors? It can't be just me.

[Rusty Beaver]

"Perhaps you and others would join me in a think tank of how to affect positive change besides voting with ones wallet and open discussion, because I do feel a bit stuck on ideas to implement".

Hey Justin,

I've appreciated some of your posts here…as well as some from other posters too.

Re "how to affect positive change besides voting with ones wallet"? There's a super simple way…but it's terribly unpopular: Stop consuming…or more accurately put, stop consuming like a wildfire. I hear/read all the justifications of why people need this or that (I do it myself) when in reality, they simply want…to fulfill a part of their ego. It feels good to get something new. It makes us happy for a short time and then we need to do it again, and again and again. Eckhart Tolle explains this really well in "A New Earth".

I satisfy those "needs" by shopping at thrift stores and modifying stuff if it doesn't suit/fit me. I repair stuff rather than getting rid of it. I make stuff. I do all this not only to satisfy my ego but because I thoroughly enjoy working with my hands….and I do it because of my personal convictions, not because I'm silly enough to believe that I alone am going to make a big difference. What kind of person would I be if I just talked about it on Internet forums? Not a genuine one. What kind of person would I be if I turned a blind eye to the worlds issues?

I cross this philosophy over into all aspects of my life (I can explain if anyone wants)…but I'm careful not to use the terms "green", "sustainable", etc. Those are trends. I prefer to use the term "practical" instead…because that's what this is: being practical. It's not a popularity contest, a rah rah football game, or a fashion show.

Sat morning soapbox'n…..

[BlackHatGuy]

Yeah, we've done some pretty nasty things abroad – not so much to enforce our moral code on others but really to ensure wealth for our 1 percenters. But, as with everything, nothing is black and white. Enforcing our 'western moral code' on others has also helped to end apartheid, is helping to combat human trafficking and the child sex trade, and helping to combat some other repugnant practices in other countries. And, I'll admit, I'm quite alright with that, regardless of whether the 'locals' are quite fine with their own moral code.

I also agree, completely, with the need to turn our holier-than-thou eyes inward – because there's an awful lot of repugnant practices still going on in this country. I just don't agree that we have to fix everything here before we pay any attention to other things elsewhere.

[Valerie E]

1. A few words on how the Fashion Industry works:

How “leftovers” [of factory runs] should be disposed of varies by contracts, according to Susan Scafidi, a law professor at the Fashion Law Institute of Fordham University. “Some trademark holders insist that they be destroyed, some allow them to be sold within a specific geographic area, others, less concerned with exclusivity and scarcity, will allow the products to be sold,” Scafidi said. …Obviously, it can be a touchy subject for retailers. Forever 21, for example, declined to comment on the practice, and J.Crew didn't provide an immediate comment.

Apart from contract issues, selling overruns with labels or displaying the brands is more serious offense—it can be seen as a violation of a company's trademark. As a result, VENDORS ARE ASKED NOT TO MENTION THE BRANDS, AND TO EITHER CUT THE LABELS OFF OR CONCEAL THEM IN PICTURES. [Emphasis added] By minimizing the involvement with the brand, the matter is made a lot easier as fashion designs are rarely protected, at least in China and the US, according to Scafidi.

Note that, in the eBay listing, the brand name is not mentioned, nor is the logo very clear in the majority of photos. (Using a small laptop, I didn't even see it when I ordered the garment.)

2. Legal vs. Grey Areas

[From "The Economic Impact of Counterfeiting", by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, 1998, http://www.oecd.org/sti/ind/2090589.pdf ]

A number of activities, such as parallel trading and factory over-runs, are treated as counterfeiting by trademark owners but not by enforcement agencies.

“Parallel trading” refers to situations where products are legitimately bought in one territory and diverted for sale to another territory without the consent of the right holder in the receiving territory. [aka "grey marketing]

A related problem for trademark owners is the unauthorised production by legitimate suppliers. In some sectors, such as toys and spare parts, it has become the practice for suppliers to produce “over-runs” – extra quantities of products which they do not account for – and sell them on the black market. THE TRADEMARK OWNER AGAIN CONSIDERS THE GOODS TO BE COUNTERFEITS BUT FINDS IT DIFFICULT TO TAKE ACTION. COURTS AND ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES TREAT OVER-RUNS AS A BREACH OF CONTRACT RATHER THAN AS A TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT. [Emphasis added]

Maybe this accounts for the VERY strange response that Ian B got from Jack Wolfskin ("It's an [sic] fake.", go to our website and buy our stuff.) Very odd, indeed, as a reaction to being ostensibly told that someone is committing an international crime, where you're the victim!

Edited to add: Those of you unfamiliar with the clothing industry probably don't know that for each "collection" (think NF's 2013 Fall line), a large number of sample styles are created. Many of these pieces will NOT end up in the collection; some will end up in the brand's outlet stores; others will just be put aside. I bought a "legitimate" MH women's sample shirt that was never released in the long-sleeved version, but dozens of samples were made of that style before it got cut from their summer line.

3. How can BPLers be missing the very foundation of a just society?????

What disturbs me the most about SO many of the comments to this thread is the COMPLETE distain for "due process" under the law — you have tried and convicted the manufacturer and seller, with ONE TINY SHRED of circumstantial evidence, no knowledge of industry practices, and no opportunity for him to defend himself! Wow, that's scary! Especially from folks who've written pages and pages of fine sentiments about "making a difference", "morality", etc. One of the ONLY things that separates a polity from fascism is DUE PROCESS. Please, think about it. Am I really the only one here who thinks very foundation of the Anglo-American legal system is vitally important?

[Anonymous]

" we've done some pretty nasty things abroad – not so much to enforce our moral code on others but really to ensure wealth for our 1 percenters. But, as with everything, nothing is black and white."

+1 That, too. As you say, nothing is black and white, excepting perhaps Zebras and Pandas. ;0)

"Enforcing our 'western moral code' on others has also helped to end apartheid, is helping to combat human trafficking and the child sex trade, and helping to combat some other repugnant practices in other countries. And, I'll admit, I'm quite alright with that, regardless of whether the 'locals' are quite fine with their own moral code."

I would feel better about that were our enforcement a bit less selective, to the point of being cynical. And I am totally against it if it involves sacrificing our young men and women, or inflicts even greater suffering on the local population than they are already undergoing. Iraq is a poster child for my line of reasoning. As are The West Bank and Gaza, speaking of apartheid. Closer to home, to the degree that it is presented to our own people as the reason for undertaking coercive measures abroad, I think it distracts us from dealing with our mess.

[BlackHatGuy]

"I would feel better about that were our enforcement a bit less selective, to the point of being cynical. And I am totally against it if it involves sacrificing our young men and women, or inflicts even greater suffering on the local population than they are already undergoing."

We agree here. Notable that in the examples I gave above – economics was our forcing function, not our service members. And generally much more successful, though you might point out, and I'd also agree with, our sanctions are often very poorly conceived and hurt the 'rank and file' without effecting the rich and powerful in the target country….

[Ian]

The trademark owner has already stated that this is a fake. If you want to ignore the law because it's inconvenient and perform mental gymnastics to justify the purchase then you do so at your own peril.

Knowingly importing counterfeit goods from China never sounds like a good idea.

Edit:

"One of the ONLY things that separates a polity from fascism is DUE PROCESS."

"Due process" relates to criminal proceedings. If a prosecutor a) finds that you are in violation of the law, b) finds your case worthy of prosecuting, and c) can secure an indictment… you will certainly have your day in court to argue your case.

[Franco Darioli]

Valerie,
at best it can only be a failed pre-production run, in other words (at best….) a line that Jack Wolfskin has rejected.
Why ?
Because again the label is on the wrong side and very simply JW does not sell that particular item.
Same as finding an $80 Apple iPhone 7 with interchangeable battery.

[Ian]

Tom,

From reading your postings since I joined last year, I agree with you more often than not. I don't disagree with anything you've written here. However, I can't justify breaking the law by purchasing counterfeit goods just because America's foreign policy flaws are many and massive.

I never heard of Jack Wolfskin before this thread. Just because they are a multi million dollar business does not make them exempt from internationally accepted protection.

The funny thing is that this ebay company adds no value to this wind shirt that I can perceive by adding the logo. It seems far simpler to just remove the logo or create their own TM and sell this product through legitimate means. Lord knows that there's a market for this shirt.

Edit to add: If they sold this shirt legally with the logo "cheap piece of crap" on the chest for <$20, I'd buy one right now.

[Anonymous]

"economics was our forcing function, not our service members. And generally much more successful"

Yes, particularly in South Africa, where the major impact came when US corporations like IBM were forced to close up shop there. The Afrikaners saw the handwriting on the wall and folded before there was much of an impact at the grass roots level.

"though you might point out, and I'd also agree with, our sanctions are often very poorly conceived and hurt the 'rank and file' without effecting the rich and powerful in the target country…."

Indeed. That was the case in Iraq, where close to one million Iraqis, half of them children, perished as a result of the sanctions regime engineered by the US in the mid 90's. A very similar situation prevails in Gaza since the people there made the wrong choice when they elected Hamas to govern them and we immediately imposed sanctions. And now Iran. Cuba has fared a bit better, but in all these cases, it is the common people who have borne the brunt of the suffering.

[Justin Baker]

If I buy the shirt and rip off the logo when I get it, then is it ok?
I've never heard of jack wolfskin and I'm certainly not going to buy their reportedly expensive products, so I see no moral issue here (legal issues aside).

It would be different if I found a jack wolfskin product that I liked and intentionally searched the internet for a cheaper knock off of that item.

[Franco Darioli]

I'll give you another clue…
If you look at the top of the page in that listing you will see a photo named "all".
That is the one that shows all the colours in one photo.
look carefully and you will see that they have a different brand (can't read it) and on the other side .

[Ian]

Let me propose a scenario. Same ebay company starts making cuben fiber shelters. They add the Zpacks logo and market the shelter as a hexamid but for hundreds less that the real company can sell the shelter for. (replace with MLD, TT, or other cottage industry you respect). No gray area in the law; it's a completely illegal product but (in this scenario) there is zero chance of you being served with a warrant.

Would you buy this shelter?

[Anonymous]

"From reading your postings since I joined last year, I agree with you more often than not. I don't disagree with anything you've written here. However, I can't justify breaking the law by purchasing counterfeit goods just because America's foreign policy flaws are many and massive."

Ian,

My bad if you thought I was using a critique of US foreign policy to justify buying a counterfeit windshirt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Personally, I have never knowingly purchased anything that is counterfeit, nor would I. I'm pretty sure my record on that score, knowingly or not, is clean. It's unfortunate the thread drifted, and I got involved in a subject that would have been better addressed in Chaff. I think that is where Katharina tried to move it, but half of the conversation is still being conducted here. Not sure what to do about that….

As for my postings, I have a hunch that, while we are bound to disagree on various specifics, we both want what is best for this country. My hope is that thru discussions like these we can start to arrive at a grass roots consensus on what needs to be done to get our country back on course. If has to start somewhere; if not in forums like BPL, then where? Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time presenting my own ideas for dissection/debate. To me, this is where the rubber meets the road in an open, democratic society.

Looking forward to continuing the dialogue(s).

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Valerie

> 1. A few words on how the Fashion Industry works:
Ah, you know too much. :-)
You are letting Harsh Reality (the Real World) intrude into an armchair rant about why the rest of the world should conform to some people's slightly misled ideas about how the American system works.
In other words, I agree.

> Maybe this accounts for the VERY strange response that Ian B got from Jack Wolfskin
> ("It's an [sic] fake.", go to our website and buy our stuff.)
Yup, exactly. Boilerplate response, as I said before. I imagine Jack Wolfskin have zero interest in pursuing the matter – and probably anticipated it happening before they placed the contract! As, most likely, in years past as well.

There's a JW shop in Oberstdorf in Germany (I think JW is a German company), and towards the end of the season everything 'left over' from the peak selling season (ie all the seasonal fashion stuff) goes at half price. They still make a good profit from that.

> Please, think about it. Am I really the only one here who thinks very foundation of
> the Anglo-American legal system is vitally important?
Yup – for instance the NSA does not.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Ian

> "Due process" relates to criminal proceedings. If a prosecutor a) finds that you are
> in violation of the law, b) finds your case worthy of prosecuting, and c) can secure
> an indictment… you will certainly have your day in court to argue your case.

Er, well, better add 'd) it is politically expedient to pursue the matter' to that list. The fraction of reported offenses which are NEVER pursued is not small.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Franco wrote:

> If you look at the top of the page in that listing you will see a photo named "all".
> That is the one that shows all the colours in one photo.
> look carefully and you will see that they have a different brand (can't read it)
> and on the other side .

Hum … I wonder … perhaps the company did a production run of these shirts first, then added a number of known logos to the WRONG sides, then offered them as samples to the various Western companies? When (some of) the Western companies declined to place a contract (or even if they did), all the samples were put on eBay?

That fits kinda close to how they work. It also means the logo is, from the vendor's point of view, completely irrelevant – which may be why they simply did not mention the logos in the ad.

Cheers

[Kattt]

"Am I really the only one here who thinks very foundation of the Anglo-American legal system is vitally important?"

You are almost alone, I am afraid. Due process is almost a thing of the past but maybe we could reintroduce the idea; I am all for that.

[Bob Gross]

Keep in mind that Kat is one of the cornerstones of the International Fashion Industry. She has a whole team of lawyers ready to litigate any improper use of Mountaingoat Hats.

–B.G.–

[Ian]

Roger,

I've testified to hundreds of cases in grand jury and and investigated many more than that but thanks for explaining to me how it works. Kind of like me telling you how to put a stove together.

Edit none of them were IPR cases as that's not my field of work.

Edit edit: Well I went full d-bag with this response but I'll leave it up seeing that you people piss me off.

[Author]

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