“Faux-dini”: 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 – Initial Review and Sourcing

[Peter S]

Roger, thanks for explaining your moderation-actions. This is very appreciated and positive IMO.

You could probably have saved yourself some time and do at the same time as you moderated though ;-)

[Kattt]

My question was not why the "offending post" was deleted. My question was why Roger had to edit Craig's next post . If there is not enough time to let the poster know their post has been deleted entirely, or to write a note about it, then why take the time to edit a perfectly legitimate post and explain your actions there?
So Franco….what was your reply about in this context?
And those telling me that this is what admins do…..I know what they do and I know that Roger has changed over the last few weeks.

How did the survey go and did Roger not jump in to some of our complaints about the proposed new rules, saying that they were just proposals, so don't get all in a huff…?

These are very specific questions, not why do moderators exist etc.

1. Results of the survey; do we have them? Did they matter?
2. A post that merely mentions one having had a different post entirely deleted:
If you don't have enough time to explain the one you deleted completely, or write a reply about it, why enter someone else's that way you did? Anyone reading that does not get the picture of what really happened here.

So can you not leave one be if they write "oops I have been deleted and do not really like it". ? It would save you some time not to edit posts that contain no vulgarity are are not in the least bit offensive.

No disrespect meant, but replies about the F word not being ok have nothing to do with my question, nor do generic "defense of moderator duties".

[scree ride]

This post is not my own. I'm over it.Anybody else?

If I buy a product and part of my money is donated to charity, who gets the tax credit? not me. Why don't they just lower their prices and let me pick my own charities. Their goal is for me to feel good about overspending on their products.
The main reason I have a "room dedicated to just gear" is that I have bought many cheap products over the years then I buy something decent to replace them. Our landfills are filled with cheap products. This may or may not be one of those products.
A good find, depends on how long it lasts.

[Jon Leibowitz]

Back to the topic on hand……has anyone managed to order this thing in another color than sky blue? The description below shows some cool colors but I can't figure out how to order it in other colors……

[D S]

>Back to the topic on hand……has anyone managed to order this thing in another color than sky blue? The description below shows some cool colors but I can't figure out how to order it in other colors……<

Go to the original linked ad, then go to seller's store. Do a search for "jacket" and the individual ads for each color will come up. Then, order accordingly.

Sizing chart should also appear at bottom.

Hope that helps!

[scree ride]

Just be prepared they don't censor.

[Ian Schumann]

Roger,
You said this among other things:
Complaining that the factory conditions are atrocious is all very well, but what if the alternative is unemployment and starvation? Difficult, very difficult.

… and I found that whole post of yours to be very balanced, honest, and considerate.

This is something I've talked over numerous times with my wife (who works in fighting domestic human trafficking here in the USA) and with our friends, most of whom are into socially-conscious purchasing, and the like.

I think it's interesting to consider the micro- or mini-economic impacts of our exporting our own cultural values onto other developing economies. What I mean by that is just what you've pointed out here — that while the proliferation of sweat-shop labor or harsh working conditions might seem unconscionable to progressive-minded western consumers, sometimes the very workers who are in those east-asian factories would strongly object to the closing of those jobs. We forget quickly (as was also pointed out) that the robber-baron age, or gilded age, of US history was very much the same way, and was critical to our own industrial revolution and creation of an urban middle class. At least, this is the story that's been taught to me.

So what is the solution? As Roger said there may not be a clear-cut choice that is airtight from all sides. If we purchase counterfeit, knockoff, or sweat-shop produced goods, we may subject distant laborers to some temporary suffering. If we refuse to buy those same goods, then we inadvertently lay off those workers, most of whom were at work voluntarily in those sweat shops, and force them to compete for ever-fewer jobs in order to feed their families. The labor will flow inexorably toward whatever opening the market creates, and for the western consumer of conscience, there may simply not be a quick fix.

This is probably an amateurish consideration of the overall issue, as we're getting into a pandora's box regarding macro-economic development and a lot of stuff that I know pitifully little about.

But my point is … in my view it would seem an oversimplification for us to assume that simply by purchasing from fair trade or ethically supply-chained companies, that we have decisively solved one of the world's problems. Upon closer inspection from the other end of the supply chain, the issue looks a bit more nuanced than that.

This is not to put anyone down here or to take a particular side. I'm just sharing the fruit of some own IRL conversations I've had with activist friends here.

As a final gift, if anyone really wants to explore the rabbit hole and see how far you have to go to avoid being a hypocrite, take a look here:
http://slaveryfootprint.org/
Through large amounts of gathered data and statistics, this little app will make an educated guess at how many slaves you employ, based on your consumption and existing possessions. Pretty eye-opening.

Update / Edit
Just took the survey again myself. Looks like I employ an estimate of 42 slaves.

Maybe instead of talking about lowest base weight, we could compare how many (or few) slaves each of us employ inadvertently. I'm joking of course. Well, at least half-joking.

[Link .]

.

[Nick Gatel]

This entire thread is a disaster from about the 3rd post or so forward.

Maybe everyone should turn off the computer and go hiking or something outdoors.

Hmm… good idea. See you in a couple weeks.

[Franco Darioli]

Well I am dumbfounded.
The thread is about a counterfit Jack Wolfskin wind jacket.
Jack Wolfskin employs about 700 workers but somehow everybody here is discussing Patagonia, another company that happens to have nothing to do with this…
Then a member chooses to spell out the F word and I am questioned about what that has to do with anything.

[And E]

Cuz this thread is pulling off some sick drifts.

I ordered a couple, as I've mentioned earlier. Whether they're counterfeit or not, is not for me to determine, nor is it my job to police ebay. If it is counterfeit, well, that sucks for jack wolfskin, but it played no part in my decision to buy it, as I had not ever heard of that company. I bought it because it was cheap and looked interesting to try out. If it is counterfeit, then I hope jack wolfskin will be able to do something about it to stop exploitation of their brand name.

I read the gear posts to read about gear, not about politics and ethics and whatnot. I thank Valerie for her post that highlighted a purchase she made and received, and it's regrettable that people took it upon themselves to turn this thread into their personal soapbox.

I ordered mine yesterday and it has already shipped, so +1 to the seller for being quick with that.

[Kattt]

Doug could sort this out pretty quickly.

Franco, you don't understand how your comment about the F word had nothing to do with my specific question to Roger?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Katharina

> I know that Roger has changed over the last few weeks
Um … not that much?
Ryan and I discussed some recent problems and it seemed that my taking a slightly more active role could be beneficial. That's the only change I am aware of. If I have meanwhile gone senile or something, I don't want to know about it :-)

> How did the survey go and did Roger not jump in to some of our complaints about the
> proposed new rules
Ryan is running the survey. You need to ask him, not me. And he makes the rules as it is his web site.
Mind you, I don't think any of the rules are 'new'. They were summarised by someone as 'be nice'. I think that is a good summary.

> It would save you some time not to edit posts that contain no vulgarity are are not
> in the least bit offensive.
I have answered that question once already. At the time, before I deleted one sentence, it was rated 'offensive'.

Cheers

[Jerry Adams]

"They were summarised by someone as 'be nice'. I think that is a good summary."

No reason for "the rules" to be more than that.

It just encourages people to argue about the rules and how they're being enforced.

[Corbin McFarlane]

The average Chinese factory worker was/is a peasant farmer, using a hand-whittled stick with metal on the end to scratch the ground for peanuts to subsist on. Literally. The farmer raises pigs, the profit from the pigs goes to new clothes for the whole family for New Year. They raise the pigs with little or no veterinary knowledge. If ten pigs live and are not stolen they break even, if twelve pigs can be sold the family will be lucky to get new underwear for New Year, if an average of 30 pigs are sold everyone gets a whole new set of clothes per year!

Now you go to work for a factory while continuing to subsist by growing peanuts. You stitch sleeves on windshirts for $1.35/hr, working 2000 hours per year even while planting and harvesting peanuts. You think "Wow, $2700 per year guaranteed income for just sitting here stitching! Just think how many things I can give my family this New Year with $2700!!! I can buy two sets of clothes for my whole family! Heck, by this time next year I can even afford a solar water heater! Imagine the luxury of being able take a hot shower in my own home 8 months out of the year… This beats the heck out of raising sick pigs seven times before Wednesday!"

So it's safe to say that your $15 is going to a Chinese worker who is quite agreeable with the money from the job, and may even be considered a good cause (just because someone works for the money doesn't make it a bad cause). Given the permeating face-saving, there is no reason at all to believe that there is any more corruption or worse working conditions than the $150 windshirt factory. In fact, at $15 there is no margin for bad corruption or profiteering. In fact, I would say the $15 shirt is overwhelmingly the most ethical shirt because a very high percentage of the money is going to the workers. For that price it is likely either a fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants cottage operation in the sticks with flexible hours and local workers, or an after-hours profit-the-little-guy run in a larger factory that just happened to be picked up by an entrepreneur with an eBay account. Compare that to a name-brand jacket retailing for $150, with a production value of $10, and $140 of profiteering and corruption in between.

I doubt Jackwolfskin is losing anything either. Probably the jacket is intended for local consumption. Every local who buys it never heard of or saw the company, and couldn't afford it either way. Everyone who knows of Jack Wolfskin immediately knows it's not genuine.

As stated above, by far the most ethical and beneficial choice for all (excluding some potential name brand profits) is to buy the $15 jacket, and donate $135 to the Philippines.

[scree ride]

Like it or not, kids in third world countries need work. Free enterprise isn't free. Somebody has to pay for it. They get the privilege of exposure. Lead, fiber dust, machinery… All that stuff we don't allow our own kids around. Not that all foreign factories are substandard , or that all American factories aren't. One should simply be as aware as they can possibly afford to, as to where their goods come from.
If you think they might be counterfeit, contact the seller, report it to Ebay. It really is our concern.
If I have the slightest inkling that something may be counterfeit or stolen, I don't buy it. I don't see much difference between the two.

[Kattt]

Roger,
You answered my question about the survey.
As far as the other question the only related answer you have given was when you said it would take too long to write the explanation in a separate post.
Back to square one.
You deleted an entire post, based on an offensive word. Fine.
Craig wrote a post without anything offensive in it, just commenting about having had a post deleted. Instead of answering in your own post you took the liberty to edit Craig's perfectly legitimate post to add a possibly snarky explanation. Snarky is debatable here.
Right below that you had enough time to write a whole post about the ethics of the jacket etc.

Now. If you want this to just move on, the only honest answer at this point is that you did it because you could. Not because it was right, not because you did not have enough time.
That we can/ have to live with.

[Kattt]

Please, if you are going to answer, address my question. I do not need another explanation of why the first post was deleted.

[D S]

Am I somehow more ethical for paying a lot of $ for my Mountain Hardwear Ghost Whisperer Wind Shirt that says "Made in China" on it?? I doubt that it cost more to manufacture than the shirt being discussed and was probably produced under similar conditions (maybe even in the same factory).

[Dale Wambaugh]

Maybe. That is why companies like MEC have gone to great lengths to insure that the whole process is good for the workers, the environment and the end consumer. They have the time and resources to get accurate information that a consumer can't chase on a practical level. I like the idea that I can check that off on any products I buy there.

There are a number of issues that should concern us all. The issues of working conditions and worker's rights are important. Environmental issues like air, water and soil contamination should be considered. Also, the safety for the end user has been an issue as well. From my memory, China has had problems with food contamination and heavy metal content in toys and recycled shopping bags.

Stepping aside from the obvious moral issues, much of the knockoff stuff is junk. I bought a fleece on eBay with the Mountain Hardwear logo prominently displayed and sold by a stateside vendor. It was the worst stuff I have ever seen. It even *smelled* bad! I had to ship it back at my own cost to get at least partial refund. I might have just thrown it away, or washed it and donated it, but I wanted the seller to feel some of the pain.

In the case of these windshirts, I would be suspect of the DWR and fabric quality in general, as well as the zippers and the thread used.

There are products that may have some real safety issues and this counterfeit to eBay system sidesteps a lot of the consumer safety process. Think about the problem with the Jetboil stoves doing meltdowns and then take that to stoves sold with no quality control/consumer safety process. There is no good reporting chain, so it would take a lot of incidents for the problem to be identified. Basically, you step into anarchy when you buy counterfeit goods.

It's not just China, of course. I'm afraid it is an ignorance-is-bliss challenge and it is global in nature. Think before you buy. Vote with your wallet.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Katharina

> Craig wrote a post without anything offensive in it, just commenting about having
> had a post deleted.

How can I say this any more clearly? I am not talking about the first post.
Craig's second post contained unacceptable language.

The explanation I added to the second post referred to the contents of the second post.

I believe I made this point in every posting in this thread.

Cheers

[Anonymous]

"Maybe instead of talking about lowest base weight, we could compare how many (or few) slaves each of us employ inadvertently. I'm joking of course. Well, at least half-joking."

On first examination, this would seem to be a very good tool to inform our purchasing decisions, analagous to the environmental footprint. However, when viewed from ground level in, say, India or Nepal, things start to look a bit different, and the results sobering. Well intentioned efforts, of the kind that the road to hell is paved with, to crack down on practices that are abhorrent by Western standards may well result in a "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival being cast out on the street with only even less palatable options for staying alive. Anyone who has spent more than vacation time in that part of the world learns that Western values and logic have limited applicability. Better, IMO, for the righteous among us to focus their wrath and indignation on the numerous problems here at home threatening to rot our nation from within, including sweat shop labor and human trafficking.

Edited: As Roger C put it: Difficult.

[scree ride]

…and thus we excuse ourselves for our perpetuation. He is a rich man. He has many children. Many rupees.

[Anonymous]

"…and thus we excuse ourselves for our perpetuation. He is a rich man. He has many children. Many rupees."

I'm probably a bit dense, but could you clarify this for me?

[Kattt]

Ok. My bad then for not getting this the first time around.
My apologies.

So Craig in his second post wrote that he used the F word. Just like I wrote it right now. That is now considered unacceptable on BPL.

[Author]

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