Kinsman pullover w/mod

[Joe Federici]

After tackling the insulated pants I decided an insulated pullover was needed to complete the kit. What I was after was something similar to my Patagonia pullover with pants to match. I haven’t tried BMW’s Cocoon but would say these are also the same idea, something to extend the range of your sleeping kit.

The pattern and fabric I used is from Thru-hiker. It’s size large and I’d say athletic cut! There is also a option for relaxed fit in the pattern.

To give you some reference of size I’m 5’8” 175 lbs and I thought it fit sung.

I made a few modifications to the pattern that I thought would increase warmth but not add to much weight. I narrowed the sleeves about 2” at the armpit. I added a front pocket and draft tube to the front zip.

The fabric is momentum90 for the shell and liner. Insulation is 3oz primaloft Sport.

Over all I’m very happy with the results. AYCE’s directions are easy to follow and when you run into a question a simple phone call or post to his message board is quickly answered. I’d recommend this kit highly to anyone looking to try something a bit harder but would causing anyone as a first time project. The value is easy to see when you compare to any ready to wear gear like it.

Joe F

[kevin davidson]

Nice! What did the total weight turn out to be?

[Adam Rothermich]

Looks good!
I've been debating adding a front pocket like that to my Kinsman. Seeing as its a little warm here to be needing the Kinsman that project will get put off for awhile. In any case, how hard was the pocket to make? I would think it would be a simple mod when you're making the jacket. Do you think it would still be easy to add on after the jacket is complete?
I'm kind of torn between adding the pocket for convenience or leaving it off for weight savings, since its already a little heavier than I was intending.
That red looks really good BTW.

Adam

[Joe Federici]

You know I always forgot to post the weight. . . . Doh!

it's 13oz

JFF

[Joe Federici]

Add the pocket isn't that bad. It's like adding a pocket but it's one big one. You 1/2 the insulation so the final thickness is the same. If you want to seam it in with the lower front piece you'd need to do it when you made it. You could just add it to the front but that would look odd. If you check out the thru-hiker message board I've posted more info in the process.

I would say make another one, maybe try another weight insulation like 6 oz. if you've already got the 3oz.

JFF

[Chris Jackson]

Joe, the construction looks impeccable. On a related topic, you mentioned the possibility of a heavier jacket using 6 oz insulation. I'm wondering whether Thru-Hiker's heavier synthetic jackets are sewn-through? It's possible to make a baffled down jacket with no cold spots, but is that also possible for a synthetic jacket? Presumably heavy commercial jackets like the Patagonia DAS are not sewn-through, but I don't have one of those available to see how it is constructed.

[Joe Federici]

Now your talking about the secrets stuff, ha, ha

Since your insulation is attached to the liner you don't see the few areas that are quilted unless you turn it inside out. You need to put a few quilt lines in, just like the 3oz. One accross the back and each arm. I don't think these few lines are going to create much of a cold spot.

What Patagonia does is fuse the liner and insulation so no quilting is needed. That's a process you or I will most likely not get our hands on.

Another idea would be to use continuous filament insulation inplace of the Primaloft short staple insulation. This is what BMW does with there Cocoon. Up side it's a stiffer insulation and on something small like a pull over you could get away with no quilting and just stablizing the seams.

Down side, it's stiff and just does have the nice feel of a short staple insulation like Primaloft.

JFF

[Joe Federici]

For those interested AYCE put up a very in teresting and helpful comparison of delta vs XP vs PL Sport at the link below

I'm going to be making the same pull over in the PL sport 1.8 that should be lighter and just as warm as the cocoon pullover. I will most likely stay with the front pocket as well.

JFF

[Dondo .]

Joe,

I found the post you were referring to. For others looking for it go to the thru-hiker.com message board and look in the Gearmaker's Lounge. The post by AYCE is titled: Pullover insulation comparisons: delta vs XP vs PL Sport.

I'm curious to hear the response of the Deltistas who post here.

[kevin davidson]

Is this akin to a pharmaceutical company testing it's own drugs to get FDA approval? AYCE's Kinsman uses Primaloft. Just asking. >:-)>

All I can say is that on a per weight basis my Cocoon pullover is warmer than a MB Thermawrap (exoloft). I've never had an opportunity to try a UL primaloft jacket (if such a thing exists—the lightest one I'm aware of weighs about 30% more than a Cocoon—the ID PLQ). My experience with heavier Primaloft jackets were that they felt stiffer compared to my Cocoon and Micropuff Delta insulated jackets.

I also throw in this little missive by that Sultan of SUL, Ryan Jordan—
delta vs. primaloft

signed, Comandante Sub-Zero–Deltista

[Dondo .]

Comandante,

It's true that both thru-hiker and BPL have something to sell.

Would you disagree with this comment from AYCE?

>>the bottom line: A 1 to 1 substitution of 1.8 oz PL Sport for delta would give you a jacket just as warm at a lower weight than 2.0 oz delta.

signed, no-particular-axe-to-grind-just-asking-questions-Dondo

[kevin davidson]

Show me such a jacket and I'll let you know, Dondo. Again, I have yet to see a UL PL jacket. Not saying it's not possible, just that there's not one on the market and AYCE's Kinsmen's seem to come out appreciably heavier, too, in the real world.

[Joe Federici]

I realize this list is mostly for people that weight is above most other criteria but for me it’s also about quality materials and look. If I’m going to spend 20 hours making something I do it right. For me Delta may be lighter in weight but the consistency in thickness, feel and drape is just not as good as PL.

If you were to cut that Cocoon open and look inside at the insulation you'd know of which I speak of.

I didn't mean to make this about one web site over the other. I think Ryan is very good at what he does. As well as Ayce.

JFF

[kevin davidson]

Joe, I have just the opposite experience with PL vs. Delta. I find that PL does not drape nearly as well as Delta. I have handled both raw Delta and various forms of Primaloft. But such debates may become moot if Delta is indeed being phased out. Then we will be disagreeing over the attributes of CS vs. PL.

So it goes.

[Joe Federici]

The kinsman better built or you might say over built and uses things like elastic in the wrists, draw cords, and longer zipper.

Fabric wise I think they must be close? I’m not sure momentun90 and pertex.

I’m going to making another one from 1.8 and I’d consider cutting a few corners like using lycra binding for weight but I really like the front pocket and feel it’s worth the weight.

Keep drinking he water. ;-)

JFF

[Dondo .]

Full disclosure. I have neither a Delta or a PL jacket. But I do own a Delta quilt and PL Sport bag. My experience is that the PL bag has a better drape and feel than the Delta quilt. It is also much more compressible.

The new Climashield XP looks pretty good, though. It may possibly win me back to the continuous filament camp.

[kevin davidson]

It is probably true that PL is more compressible —although like Delta, I wonder
if compressing it to it's minimum volume is ultimately destrictive to the insulation. I don't mind my Delta insulation being somewhat loosely packed and filling out the voids in my packs. it's not prevented me from using small volume packs.

As for drape–I'm comparing personal experience of Cocoon garments with heavier PL jackets—so ultimately it's comparing different fruit.

As for durability—-my Cocoon Pullover is now 3 years old and still has essentially it's full loft. it would be interesting to compare with the loft retention (over time) of PL.

Yes, XP looks interesting.

Joe, what the heck is "he water"?

[Bill Fornshell]

I like Paul at Thru-Hiker. We have had many long conversations about making gear. I also know that Paul is in the business of selling material and that Polarguard Delta has never been available for retail. Paul would have sold Polarguard Delta if he could have gotten it. He added Climashield Combat to his line when another Fabric outlet started selling it. He also added the higher weight version of XP so he would have what ever the Make Gear market wanted. He has positioned himself as a one stop shop. There is nothing wrong with that.

But It is like the old saying "If you can't love the one you want, love the one you have.

Polarguard Delta is a great insulation and is the best available in a 2 ounce per sq yard version. The 2 ounce Delta was a special run and I expect Ryan had to get a bunch to convince them to run some at 2 ounces per sq yard.

The Delta that was made by Western Nonwovens was 2.6 ounce per sq yard. Delta has been tested a lot and found to recover from dampness (wet out) faster because of its large fiber size. From what I have read the Cocoon line was created for wet conditions. Polarguard Delta was chosen because it was the lightest at 2 ounce per sq yard and easier to work with in a production mode than PL-1, it is also better when wet.

I have a little or a lot of all the insulation being talked about here. PL 1.8 needs to be stablized to sew it and I have some that was pre-quilted by the company. The pre-quilting adds 1 ounce per sq yart to the weight which brings the 1.8 ounce to about 2.8 ounces a sq yard.

I don't have a dog in this fight (as they say) as I don't (at this time) sell anything. I do own several of the "Cocoon Line" items and I am very happy with them. The weight is everything for me and only what I make for myself is lighter.

I really like Polarguard Delta insulation and I have enough to last me for everything I will ever want to make.

[Arapiles .]

"Show me such a jacket and I'll let you know, Dondo. Again, I have yet to see a UL PL jacket. Not saying it's not possible, just that there's not one on the market"

Ta da!! This is the same weight as the Kinsman (which looks very cool) and a little heavier than the Cocoon 60:

http://www.rab.uk.com/products_synthetic_generator.html

I wonder if the additional kangaroo pocket accounts for the weight difference with the Cocoon 60?

[Joe Federici]

Bill your not selling anything true but you sure do seem to source fabrics and such that aren't sold to public. You must have some connections with these guys.

[kevin davidson]

Not unless that kangaroo pocket on the Rab weighs half the weight of the entire jacket.

Next…

[Joe Federici]

On mine the the weight is about the same as the lower front piece. Your just putting one (with hand cut outs) infront of the other. I made a test one and just weighted it at 0.8 oz.

Your also using 1/2 the insulation in each piece so it ends up just slightly thicker then when put together.

JFF

[Dondo .]

Kevin,

I would agree that it's probably not a good idea to compress any insulation to it's minimum volume. I use the Golite large stuff sack. Both my Delta quilt and PL Sport bag compress about as easily into it with a slight edge to the bag. The quilt is 48" wide while the bag is 60".

Drape: I think that if you compared apples to apples you would find that PL easily wins the drape contest.

Durability: The durability of both insulations has been called into question from various quarters. But I find this this post by Richard Nisley on 4/21/07 to be very interesting:

"Primaloft Sport (aka as version 2) and not Primaloft One is design optimized for loft durability in sleeping bags.

When the current generation of synthetic insulations were tested for use in the Mar's destination space suits, they noted that Primaloft Sport had the best loft durability of existing and prototype synthetics. See Mars Space Suit"

You can find the link provided by Richard in his post on 4/21/07 under the heading " Re: ?Primaloft durability question?"

[Dondo .]

Bill,

I think that the PL Sport 1.8 that is sold by thru-hiker is being compared to Delta 2.0 in the above referenced post. Is it your experience that PL Sport 1.8 cannot be used in a jacket in the way that Joe did with his PL Sport 3.0?

[Bill Fornshell]

The only way any of you are going to be happy is if you figure out a way to test the different types of insulations and decide for yourself.

I have achieved all but one of my SUL gear objective The only one left is a external pack frame with a real venting ability. That is about finished.

I have packed up all my notebooks and materials and have moved on to other things.

[Author]

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