Outward Bound – Alpine Backpacking

[Michael Moomaw]

I would like your thoughts on a topic along the same lines as the excellent Philmont article by Doug Prosser (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/boy_scout_gear_list_philmont.html)

My wife Wendy is signed for a 9-day Women Only Outward Bound "Alpine Backpacking" trip in Montana in July to calibrate her 40th birthday. She has wanted to take an OB trip since college.

She is going through the OB information and gear lists now. The literature talks about being prepared to carry "a 50 lb pack 5 miles". The gear lists include items that seem outdated and heavy such as “full-grain” leather boots and non-breathable rain gear. In addition, OB provides the other gear and if they hold this form, that gear will be heavy as well.

Wendy is athletic and in good shape (running, tennis, etc). That said, I don't think she is prepared to carry that kind of load at altitude. In addition, it doesn't seem necessary. Clearly safety is an issue but how safe will she be if she can’t walk by the third day?

I am inclined to recommend that she take her own moderately light gear (not ultralight due to her experience level – and safety concerns). Does anyone have any experience with Outward Bound gear rules? Are there any OB instructors in the forums with advice?

Thanks.

Mike
Mike Moomaw
Ellicott City, MD

[john flanagan]

It's been a while since I worked an OB wilderness trip, but my guess is that some things haven't changed. The school has an institutional approach to gear…i.e. heavy-duty packs(cordura / oxford cloth), durable tents (used to be eureka timberlines), and heavy synthetic sleeping bags. Ultimately, she will probably not approach an ultra-light or even lightweight pack as described on this site.

On the flip side, sounds like the milage is low and the pace will be slow. You may ask about the use of hiking poles – I know there is not universal agreement, but I do think that they save wear and tear on joints under heavier loads.

Some thoughts on keeping pack weight down:

First – focus on keeping personal gear weight to a minimum. Students often want to bring spare cloths. Read this site for TONS of advice on this. You don't have to go high tech and lots of running cloths cross-over fairly well. Also minimize personal care items – just carry enough for 9 days and a very minimum number of products (i.e. toothpaste, a film canister of footpowder for luxury, a comb rather than a brush, etc.).

I'd push them for clarification on raingear – this is another great place to save weight over school issue. FWIW the lightest, affordable pieces of this gear tend to be pretty non-breathable (in spite of optimistic claims otherwise)…life is full of trade-offs

Second – ask the school re: its policy on using personal pack. It used to be that everyone was strongly encouraged to use a school pack but this may have changed. If they give you a thumbs up, remember that it's gotta be big enough to carry bulky tent, kitchen and perhaps climbing gear (depends on the course). Ask about and pay attention to volume requirements.

Third – ditto for sleeping bag. There may be some relutance to approve a down bag. If so, and you don't already have one, look for a light-weight synthetic… you'll come out ahead of school issue. Again, ask first. It would be unfortunate to have the instructor put the kibosh on a new bag at the gear "shakedown" that opens each course.

Gear provided by the school will be safe, durable and heavier that anything you read about on this site. For an interesting insight into how outdoor programs tend to manage gear, search for threads related to NOLS.

Gear suggested by the school will be safe and adequate to the worst conditions possible for a course, bearing in mind that students usually have NO experience using it. Instructors are responsible for the safety of their students and tend to encourage some redundancy, particularly in insulation layers.

[David Olsen]

Important—The instructors at the trailhead will have the final say on what goes into a students pack. If something
is different than what is on the list, taking it will be
dependent on her powers of persuasion.

50 lbs would beat the 70 lbs it used to be.
OB has been gradually moving to lighter gear as it
has replaced worn out stuff. Group tarps have moved from
200d to 70d etc.

I always went light, but with all the climbing gear,repair
first aid, written resources, extra food, fuel and clothes for emergencies my pack usually came in at about 45 lbs
including 7 days food and 2 quarts of water. Today I could
probably trim that by 10 lbs with the lighter gear available.

While I discouraged 6 battery flashlights and wool lined denim ranch coats, I also made it clear to students that gear and clothes can get hammered and dirty. If they had something really nice, (that new pink goretex ski parka) they may want to leave that on the bus and use issued rain gear.

The issued sleeping bags were slumberjack 20 degree synthetics and were barely enough to keep folks warm.
A new equivalent would be warmer.

There is a LOT of standing around (classes, cooking,
belaying etc.) and it may be above treeline in rain and
wind. Hence they will have her bring long underwear and
two insulating layers. Here is where you want good
warmth to weight ratio. A synth fill jacket is
very welcome instead of a fleece layer for extra warmth.

Get the lightest, all leather boots you can find, and
make sure they have good ankle support. You want them
to protect her feet from kicking steps in hard snow and
from boulders rolling over her toes. Fabric boots tend to
wear out at the seams, tho would likely last a 9 day course. People
experienced with using fabric boots in snow (and vapor barriers) can get away with it, but it is a real bummer to end the trip early.
to carry someone out with a sprained ankle or frostbite.

Get her out there hiking up AND down hills with a pack and wearing the boots, also do some lunges and stretches.

Lastly, she only has to be in better shape than the weakest person in the group to keep up.

[David Olsen]

Post the list from OB and let folks have a whack at it to
see where she could reduce weight.

[kevin davidson]

Yes, please. That would be great fun! >:-)>

[john flanagan]

Good idea. Maybe include some notes on cloths that she already has that you think might fill the bill, some constraints around how many $'s she is willing to part with. There's no end to how much you could spend, but you get a different set of creeative juices flowing if you constrain the budget.

[Michael Moomaw]

Here is the clothing list. They don't provide an equipment list. They assume you will use theirs.

I am not sure how this will paste into the post. Here is the link to all the info provided:

http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/course_files_view.php?idx=457&coursenum=DBW731

Required Clothing List:
General:
1+ Long Underwear Top and Bottom Light or Medium Weight thermal Polypro / Capilene, etc. Absolutely no cotton or cotton blends!
1 Long sleeve shirt Medium weight wool or expedition weight Polypro/Capilene/Micro fleece
1 Warm Jacket 200 or 300 weight pile/wool/fleece jacket
2+ T shirts Cotton is OK for T-shirts. Synthetics are recommended
1 Lightweight nylon wind shirt Not waterproof! Nylon, hooded, partial zip pullover. Supplex nylon ideal.
Example: Marmot DriClime jacket
1 Waterproof Rain pants Heavy weight nylon
1 Rain jacket See info above
1 Warm Long pants Medium-weight 100% wool or 200 weight pile / fleece
1+ Lightweight Synthetic Pants Loose fitting, quick drying synthetic pants. NO JEANS. NO COTTON. Convertible (zip off) pants are fine.
Example: Marmot DriClime pant
1-2+ Shorts Quick drying nylon or equivalent. Multi-purpose shorts w/liners can double as swimwear.
2+ Bras Sports bras work best. Cotton okay. Can double as swimwear.
2-3+ Underwear Cotton recommended.
2-3+ Liner socks Wool / silk / polypropylene, etc.
2-3+ Outer socks Heavy Wool / Polypropylene, etc.
1 Warm ski hat Pile/wool
1 Sun hat Baseball cap, visor or full brimmed hat – you can purchase at obwest.org/gear
2-3 Bandanas Can be purchased at online gear store
1 pr. Gloves Medium to heavy weight wool or fleece gloves. Grip surface preferred. No ski gloves.
Example: REI Fleece Grip Gloves
1 pr. Liner gloves Light medium-weight polypro liner gloves. Should fit inside gloves.
Example: REI Performance Liner Gloves
Boots:
1pr. Boots You will need Medium weight boot. See Boot Information Sheet found in the General Info Packet.
1pr. Sneakers / running shoes Athletic running shoes that need to be sturdy yet lightweight, for “camp” shoes and the wilderness marathon at course end.

Personal:
2 32 oz. Water Bottles Can be purchased at Outward Bound on line store
1 pr. Sunglasses with keeper strap Sturdy and dark – 100% UV protection. Bring a hard case to protect them in your pack.
1 pr. Glasses or contacts, if needed You can use contact lenses while on course. If you rely on vision correction please bring back up, i.e. second set of glasses in case of loss or damage.
1 Small bottle of sunscreen Waterproof, SPF 30 or greater
1 Lip salve SPF 30 or greater
1 Toilet Kit Toothbrush, small toothpaste, comb or brush, small pack of baby wipes (deodorant and makeup are unnecessary).
Women: bring plenty of tampons/pads. Changes in activity level and altitude cause irregular periods.
1 Small headlamp LED or halogen headlamp that uses either multiple AA‘s, AAA’S, or one 4.5 volt. Extra bulb for headlamps and 1 – 2 extra sets of batteries.

1 set Clean clothes and toiletries for the trip home. Soap, shampoo, and towel. There are NO shower facilities available. Please bring a towel for a course end bucket bath.
1 Small stuff sack Used for organizing pack

OPTIONAL ITEMS: these are NOT required and you will be fine without them. Please only bring them if you already own these items. Please only buy them if you plan to use the items again after your course or you think they will be of great assistance to you while on course.

1 Small weather resistant camera and case Extra batteries if necessary.
1 Inexpensive watch with alarm
1 pair Ear plugs If you suffer from sleeplessness around others.
1 Small Fanny Pack Can be handy for carrying & organizing small items.
1 Hydration System i.e. CamelBak, Platypus, etc. Instead of water bottles.
1 Hand Lotion Small tube or bottle to combat dry skin from exposure.
1 Camp Chair Chairs for around camp need to be lightweight and portable.
Example: Crazy Creek, The Original Chair

[john flanagan]

Some thoughts

Required Clothing List:
General:
Long Underwear Top and Bottom Light or Medium Weight
light bottoms are probably enough; top depends on cold tolerance.

1 Long sleeve shirt Medium weight wool or expedition weight Polypro
option may be a exp wght vest – these are sold by Mountain Equipment Co-op in Canana (MEC.ca)

1 Warm Jacket
synthetic insultation rather than pile – see Patagonia micropuff or MEC alternatives for example

2+ T shirts
I'd do 1 low-odor and plan on washing it -see golite or EMS for examples

1 Lightweight nylon wind shirt
Patagonia Houndini or Montane for lighter alternatives.

1 Waterproof Rain pants
the definition of "heavy wght" nylon could mean anything from packcloth to standard taffeta. I'd look at Red Ledge, Patagonia Rainshadow or Marmot Precip for adequate examples

1 Rain jacket
same as above

1 Warm Long pants
a paddlers trick is to use fleece shorts rather than full pants. These insulate the femoral artery and save weight and bulk

1+ Lightweight Synthetic Pants Loose fitting, quick drying synthetic pants. NO JEANS. NO COTTON. Convertible (zip off) pants are fineExample: Marmot DriClime pant.
Agreed. If it were me and I had convertable pants, I'd use the shorts with synthetic undies for swimming in lieu of the next item and just let them drip dry on me.

1-2+ Shorts Quick drying nylon or equivalent. Multi-purpose shorts w/liners can double as swimwear.
I can't imagine carrying 2. One may make sense for swimming. Personally it would none (see above)

2+ Bras Sports bras work best. Cotton okay. Can double as swimwear.
can't comment

2-3+ Underwear Cotton recommended.
Can't really comment other than to say that anymore than 3 seems over the top. How about wash and dry alternatives like Patagonia capilene?

2-3+ Outer socks Heavy Wool / Polypropylene, etc.
agreed – keep one clean and dry for sleeping

1 Warm ski hat Pile/wool
Agreed – the trick is defining warm. Personal summer favorites are smartwool beanies and patagonia lightweight wool.

1 Sun hat Baseball cap, visor or full brimmed hat – you can purchase at obwest.org/gear
agreed – nylon rather than cotton cap to speed drying – adjustable band that can accomadate a bandana for ear and neck coverage

2-3 Bandanas Can be purchased at online gear store
2 should be more than enough

1 pr. Gloves Medium to heavy weight wool or fleece gloves. Grip surface preferred. No ski gloves.
good for use at shaded climbing sites especially in early AM

1 pr. Liner gloves Light medium-weight polypro liner gloves. Should fit inside gloves.
These are usually enough for me on backpacking trips but won't last a day on climbing sites

Boots and running shoes
Take their advice on footwear.

Personal:
2 32 oz. Water Bottles
1 liter gatoraide bottles are much lighter than nalgene alternatives

1 pr. Sunglasses Yup Hard case to protect them in your pack. I usually just wrap them in a bandana and call it good, but I pack them carefully where they won't get broken

1 Small bottle of sunscreen Waterproof, SPF 30 or greater
yup

1 Lip salve SPF 30 or greater
yup – easy to underestimate how much cracked lips hurt

1 Toilet Kit Toothbrush, small toothpaste, comb or brush, small pack of baby wipes.
Keep it to the minimum needed – repackage or use "travel packs"

1 Small headlamp LED and extra batteries.
I'd go for the LED option with 1 set of spare batteries. Figure that some low-light travel may occur – you might ask how bright they feel it needs to be. The PrincetonTec EOS is a reasonable high-output option

[Michael Moomaw]

Below is a reply from my wife Wendy:

Thanks for your insight. Do you think it would be ok to bring a camelback 100 oz instead of 2 nalgene or 2 gatorade 1L bottles? Per your suggestion, I'm only going to bring one pair of shorts (those attached to my convertible pants). I fly out Thursday and will let you know how it goes.

[john flanagan]

Don't know. I've never become a convert to hydration bladders. Personally, I prefer redundency – a leak your camelback could be a real downer while a leak in one of two gatoraide bottles is just sort of sad. Of course nalgene bottles will NEVER leak. I just did an experiment cutting one in half and it took a remarkable amount of effort {:~P

HAVE A GREAT COURSE!

[Author]

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