Rab Drillium Jacket REVIEW

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Ken, Damian,
I haven't used Paramo or similar myself but I think I undrstand a bit how it works so perhaps I could offer my perception.
Aboutn the durability of Paramo, often is stressed that Paramo suffers less from the problems other technology like gore-tex or eVENT can have. Paramo has no membrain or coating and is insensitive for punctures or similar. Like in any raingarment, DWR is important to keep the outer from wetting out, but I guess this is of no more importance for Paramo than for gore-tex or eVENT. Actually, somewhere on the furtech website there's an article which claims that a paramo/Furtech style garment works even without a DWR. About Paramo not being waterproof without DWR, technically speaking Paramo isn't even waterproof because it doesn't pass a pressure test. But in practice it seems to work in really nasty weatherconditions and a lot of Brits are saying that nothing works better in such conditions than Paramo.

I don't know if you can compare a Paramo garment directly with a Pertex-microfleece combination. The garments weight that heavy because of the thick pumpliner which isn't just fleece but a directional fabric which actively seems to move moisture away from the body. The thicker the liner, the better it seems to work but also the heavier it is.

Ken, about those vents in the Furtech gear, I'm not sure but I guess these are actually meant to overcome the one point for which Paramo is often criticised: it's just too warm in most conditions. I guess the vents should improve the range in which it can be used.

About eVENT: Doug, I don't doubt eVENT works as well as most users seems to suggest. What I don't believe is that the fabric is that good that vents aren't necessary in any imaginable circumstance. You suggest to use the front zip or pockets to vent (which depends ofcourse on the design) but by suggesting that, you actually agree that the claim of GE/BHA is rubbish. Saying that you won't need vents anymore is ridiculous since that depends from person to person and I put it in the same range as a lot of the claims by Gore: pure marketing.

I do think that eVENT offers better breathability and climacomfort than Gore but at the same time I think that at some points important progress still has to be made, certainly about the DWR capabilities of a jacket. Some manufacturers seem to have taken that into account by using less hydrophilic face fabrics. There have been some suggestions that durability of eVENT could be a problem and although not always clear how serious those claims were, it's interesting to note that from 2008, BHA will switch to a new prodcution method for the eVENT membrain which should offer improved durability while possibly also having some build-in self-healing or self-repair capabilities.
Otoh, Gore has its new woven backer which seems to offer not only lighter weight and more durability at the same time (two things not often mentioned together) but also seems to offer slightly better breathability (although you won't hear me claim it will offer the same comfort as eVENT). It's interesting to note that the improved breathability has been attained without doing any change to the membrain. Changes to the gore-tex membrain could be closer than expected and I know Gore has made already testsamples of an air permeable, direct venting mebain which works in the same way as eVENT.
all these elements are enough reason for me to stay with my still working paclite jacket just untill most of these improvements are introduced onto the market.

[Oliver Budack]

Is this membrain or is not the new Gore Pro membrain?
Because the pro also have a PUlayer, which cant be capable of direct venting.

Snuffy

[Jon Solomon]

I read somewhere, I think it was on a UK magazine website, that big advances in DWR are coming soon.

Cioch, by the way, has a paramo-type jacket called the Glamaig that weighs 510g–18 ounces.

[Miguel Arboleda]

Miguel – would you believe that Paramo is not available in London at all? There are no stockists!

That's weird. Doesn't Paramo have quite a vocal and passionate following in Britain? Or maybe those English just don't trust the Scots to come up with anything sexy?

Miguel – I'd wanted to use Paramo for winter walks in the Japan Alps – at what temperatures did you find it started to be inadequate?

Damien, I think Paramo garments would be perfect in winter here in Japan. You do need to bring a warmer layer for underneath the garment because it breathes so well that it just doesn't do as great a job as Goretex (perhaps similar to eVent?) in holding warm, still air underneath. Brits use Paramo a lot in winter.

I also wonder about how durable the waterproof characteristics of the Paramo-type garments would last when subject to the abrasions of bushwacking, off trail travel and general mtneering. Maybe someone here has experience in this matter?

Paramo claims that the outer material is very durable, but in bushwacking through some bamboo woods, the material easily punctured. However, that was no problem at all with its waterproofing; I just sewed a patch of nylon to the tear and the garment worked perfectly again.

Given that Paramo stress how important it is to wash and reproof their garments I suspect that the DWR is not particularly durable. On one of the threads the Furtech site links to someone actually says that without its DWR Paramo is not at all waterproof, "pump liner" or not.

The Paramo system really is different from anything else that most people are used to. I think most people try to imagine how the system works they immediately jump to the "waterproof-outer-layer" image that we've all been taught to accept as the way to think of waterproofing. So Paramo doesn'T really make sense when you first look at it. It doesn't work with a waterproof barrier, as Tom described. It uses a "furry" inner liner that "pumps" out moisture… actively pumps it out. You can put a drop of water on the inner surface and it will visibly be sucked away to the outer surface. The DWR proofing on the outside just helps the garment from wetting out. Even with the garmnet wetted out it always worked fine for me. Washing only needs to be done about once every ten uses or so, not so different from other outer clothes.

The garments are heavy and that is because of the furry pump liner, also as Tom described. I always find that walking in the rain in most places that are not sea level or protected from wind the rain has a way of chilling me off. The pump liner acts as the thin insulation layer you'd normallly wear against this chill. It's not like Buffalo or Montane Pertex/ Pile though… Paramo really is waterproof.

It's weird how Paramo users always have to make a concentrated effort to promote the system, and how so many people seem to doubt it!

[Arapiles .]

quot;Miguel – would you believe that Paramo is not available in London at all? There are no stockists!

That's weird. Doesn't Paramo have quite a vocal and passionate following in Britain? Or maybe those English just don't trust the Scots to come up with anything sexy?"

Paramo does seem to have a devoted following in the UK, particularly in country areas and amongst "ramblers", and there are Paramo dealers all over the UK, including in the home counties, but – bizzarely – none in London itself. The nearest Paramo stockist to me appears to be in Reading.

[kevin davidson]

Alas, that the Cioch Glamaig is only partially lined, but it's nice that the local cottage industry is furthering the "Paramo" concept in different ways and bringing the weight down.

Reading various Brit based forums on Paramo, like anything else, it has it's fans and detractors. Very differing stories on both fabric durability and how crucial the DWR is to the "waterproofness" of the garment. Seems to me that once the garment wets out that it could get very heavy. Just like the ventile parkas (THE waterproof/breathable wunderkind of it's day) the members of a previous generation of mtneers–and my mentors—once touted.

I understand that only the Scots could have invented such shells—if you've ever hiked or climbed in the Cairngorms in any season, one would understand. And also understand why one peculiarly Scots dance is called the "Slosh".

But Ah cannae clock Paramo for nae thing but trauchlin the pish doon Dreich o'Alba to save yae frum be'in gubbed 'n drookit.

[david chan]

Where did this idea that Paramo is a Scottish product come from? They are based just outside Tunbridge Wells, south of London, which is almost as far from Scotland as you can get in England.

As far as I know their only connection with Scotland is that they have a lot of customers there.

[kevin davidson]

Yes, they've infiltrated into Kent yae spangled Sassenach. ;-)>
Just look into the geneology of the Paramo and Furtech founders—
Alba Gu Brath!

But if it's any consulation, the latest dna evidence would indicate that Scots,English, Welsh or Irish—you all are genetically one people.

[david chan]

>>Yes, they've infiltrated into Kent yae spangled Sassenach. ;-)> <<

I'm amazed Kevin. How did you know I wear spangles?

[kevin davidson]

touché! >;-)>

[Andy Davison]

Hi folks, just came across your thread and thought I would add my two penneth:

FurTech type garments have integral insulation approx. equal to a 100 weight fleece so at 700 to 800g for the equivalence of two layers it is a reasonably lightweight system. You can find some weight comparisons here, http://furtech.typepad.com/furtech_used_for/2007/04/furtech_for_bac.html

However, vents are used to allow cool air in, past the insulation for temperature flexability without taking the garments off. Though breathability helps to prevent overheating it doesn't compare to allowing hot air out and cool air in. I guess eVent are worried about chilling the membrane and stopping it from working?!

These systems continue to work after puncture and can be repaired easily. I have a Paramo jacket that still works after 15 years!

Hey…I am biased though!

Cheers, Andy Davison (FurTech founder)

[kevin davidson]

Very cool comparison list, Andy, and welcome to BPL.

I was just comparing that very list w/ what I was carrying on a gearlist I posted on this site in the past. It is, arguably, comparing apples and oranges (an early fall high elev. trip in a drier environment–compared to the Lake District or Cairngorms—w/ daytime lows of low 30'sF. high's to low 50'sF and windy, some rain, some snow).

My total, using your categories was 923g. with 683g. carried. If I was using the FurTech talon and trousers, I estimated that I would have a total of 1683g, carrying 1192g of that. So, when we are talking about Ultralight Backpacking in my described conditions, I can go lighter and be comfortable with a non-Paramo/ FurTech approach. Now in consistently cold, wet conditions, I can see where going FurTech is going to compare much more favorably, and perhaps more comfortably ( I have to give Andy and the Paramo-istas on this thread the benefit of the doubt here, as my experience has so far been limited to looking at Paramo Jackets in stores across the pond. But I'm definitely intrigued. And for Winter mtneering, I'm even more interested.

2 questions to Andy—is there going to be N.American distribution at some point? AND has PETA mistaken you as a target, yet? :-)>

[barry hitchcock]

jon soloman

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i have a pair of cioch trousers. I chose made to measure because i did not want a fly.Well made, quick helpful service Weight 600 gms. I am 5 feet 7 tall. I have also got an older paramo cascada jacket. Weight 1020 gms size small. i believe the newer ones are lighter. I reproof in the washing machine approx. every 6 months. They work well and suit my style- slow old and cold

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KD a word of advice– best not go to Glasgow on a saturday night to expound your dna theory

[kevin davidson]

Not my theory—
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/science/05cnd-brits.html?ex=1179374400&en=26505c795b75caaf&ei=5070

My Glaswegian crowded Sat. nite pub strategy is to throw a copy of the above article in ahead of me—when the dust settles it's safe for the likes of me to enter. >:-)>

Drinks all around.

[Arapiles .]

Hi Andy

As I understood it, the softshell/paramo idea originally took off in Scotland (amongst other places) with people using non-waterproof breathable nylon jackets over fleece. So, would a microfleece and a windshirt work as well as an all-in-one garment like yours or Paramo's?

If the "pump liner" is the difference, what is it made of?

Does the system need a certain level of exertion in order to be effective or could I sit around in near freezing, foggy sleet and rain and expect my skin to stay dry?

Does your product or Paramo's still work if the DWR wears off?

Thanks for any input you may have on these issues that I've been wondering about for a while!

[Martin Pomije]

Is it a newer model?

[Adam Klags]

I couldn't help myself because I came across this thread while searching for photos of my jacket online. I was really happy to see this review. I got my hands on one of these jackets in 2007/2008 when a shop owner made the mistake of letting me try on his sample from RAB… so yeah, to answer your question, it is a different color than the one's RAB sold because these orange ones were an early run and were given to testers and store owners who were signing up with RAB early on in the market here in the US. I liked that jacket and the color so much that I literally insisted he sell it to me, and he did. I have owned it ever since. I have used it on every backpacking trip, bushwhacking trip, fishing trip, road trip, and any outdoor related trip I've taken since I bought it. I have owned/destroyed from use and given away many other rain jackets, some of which weighed in at half of this jacket's weight. But you know, I wouldn't sacrifice this jacket for any other piece of gear out there. I have never loved a jacket the way I love this one. It is my favorite piece of outdoor gear, and its sad that they aren't making them anymore.

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