Thermal Feedback in Upright Canister Stoves

[Roger Caffin]

Yes, I am fairly sure the Sievert canister is heavier than a Coleman Powermax canister. I did check at one stage.

Note that it does have a 7/16" NCEF threaded Lindal valve, so it would be immediately compatible with every remote canister stove on the market.

Donations of unused canisters eagerly sought… :-)

Cheers

[steven franchuk]

"Note that it does have a 7/16" NCEF threaded Lindal valve, so it would be immediately compatible with every remote canister stove on the market."

it might not be compatible with every remote canister stove on the market. I didn't realize this today but the higher pressure of a propane canister could cause some serious problems if used with current stoves. The greater pressure will give a a very big flame. You might have to turn the valve to minimum to get a reasonable sized flame. Then a small change in valve position might just turn it off. Also the hoses used on current remote canister stoves might fail or leak at the pressures associated with propane. Lighting the stove could cause an uncontrolled fire if the hose leaks.

I could be completely wrong. In fact I hope I am. I didn't know anything about the Sievert canisters until yesterday and at present I have found very little information about them. Has anyone actually made a stove for it or has anyone actually tried to use it on a standard butane remote canister stove?

I guess I should have looked at Jim's earlier link before I posted the above. He has used it with a conventional butane stove without any major problems.

[Ken Larson]

Ken,
Thank you for being a valued Bernzomatic customer and we are happy to help with your question below. Unfortunately, this product was discontinued in a product line rebuild prior to Bernzomatic joining Worthington Industries in the fall of 2011. The power cell line and the torches that accompanied them are no longer available in the market. I would encourage you to visit a retailer or wholesaler such as Lowes, Home Depot or your local Plumbing Supply house and acquire a new torch with the updated features. If we can be of any more help, please call us at 866-928-2657.

Again, we apologize for any inconvenience this issue has caused you.

Kris Cooley
Consumer Specialist
Phone: 614-840-3468
Fax: 614-438-3083
[email protected]

[David Thomas]

Steven, I wouldn't expect higher pressure to be an issue – only a good thing. Propane at 0F is like butane at (no data in front me now) something like 70F. Further, you expect butane to be controllable from 35F to 120F, right? That's a huge pressure range.

If they've got the right valve, no problem. You may assume more pressure difference across a valve makes for more fuel flow, but that's only true to a point. At high pressure, the fuel gas goes sonic and is mass limited, based on the cross-section of the current valve setting.

Propane will burn a little leaner in a stove tuned for butane. That may be a bit less BTU/hour at max flame. It would also put out less CO at altitude. But mostly, a butane-propane-mix stove will be fine with 0 to 100% propane.

[Nick Gatel]

The benefit (or problem) with propane is that its vapor pressure is ~ 5 times as great as butane or the iso blends. Here is a chart from the Zen Stoves website (http://zenstoves.net/Canister.htm)

Any appliance (stove) needs to be constructed to handle the pressure of its intended fuel. This means that burners, fittings, seals, hoses, lines, fuel container, etc. must handle the maximum pressure of the fuel.

I am not a scientist, but have a lot of experience with propane appliances. Let’s look at how RV manufactures manage the high pressures of propane. Any appliance that is inside the RV must run on 11 inches water column pressure (less than 1 psi). That means the following appliances in my tent trailer operate at 11” WC: 13.5K btu furnace, 6 gallon water heater, LPG refrigerator/freezer, and 3 burner stove/oven. How do I know this is the actual pressure? I have measured it with a manometer (below).

The appliances in my tent trailer are all known as low pressure appliances. The pressure is dropped from the LPG tanks to the camper via a pressure regulator.

Now let’s talk about outdoor propane appliances. Most are rated at 13-16 psi, and all include a built in pressure regulator. I have never seen a butane/iso stove canister stove with a pressure regulator.

Above: This is a Coleman propane stove and the regulated pressure is 16 psi.
You can run this stove off a bulk propane tank, but you MUST purchase a HIGH pressure hose rated at well over 200 psi.

Above: This is an interesting one, a Weber Baby Q Grill. My testing found that it is a low pressure stove operating at under 1 psi. The reason it works so well is that the grill is enamel coated cast iron (heavy). Given it is a low pressure appliance, I was able to remove the regulator and connect it directly to the outside quick connector on my tent trailer, which has 11" WC pressure.

Above: regulator removed and replaced with a quick fitting.

Above: Hose connector to the camper.

Above: low pressure appliances connected to tent trailer.

So why am I posting pictures of RV propane appliances? Because I know the operating specifications and can verify the pressures.

When it comes to backpacking stoves I am going to use the stove that works for the conditions I am going to encounter. In winter snow conditions I am going to use a Wind Pro II (inverted) or a MSR Dragon Fly. Those are the right tools for me, and I am going to use the fuels that are intended for each stove by the stove manufacturer; and I am going to follow the operating and maintenance procedures put forth by the manufacturer. That is why I have never had the "common" problems folks have with liquid stoves to include a Svea 123. There are too many things that can go wrong when you are out in the field using "jury-rigged" equipment, especially if one is tired and cold.

[Roger Caffin]

> I didn't realize this today but the higher pressure of a propane canister could
> cause some serious problems if used with current stoves.
This might be so in principle, but it is unlikely in practice. There are two areas which might be of concern: the hose, and the valving. (Disclaimer: these are personal opinions, not BPL statements.)

Hose pressure
This would be higher with propane, but the hoses used are mostly small-bore and will take an order of magnitude more pressure than is present. I say 'mostly' – there are some Asian remote canister stoves which seem to have poor-quality hoses and they might fail. I just don't know about them. Caution with them.
I addition, the braid overwrap will add enormous strength to the hoses. The burst pressure on a real (good) hose with braid would be extremely high.

Valving
The higher pressure will alter the valving of course. If the design of the valve is such that the stove used goes from off to full power in a quarter turn, then control will become more tricky. However, recent designs have been made with a much more gradual taper so that several turns are required. In this case the valving with propane will be more sensitive but easily controlled.

> standard butane remote canister stove?
No such thing really. The screw-thread canisters usually contain a butane/propane mix, with a higher pressure than plain butane.

The only change which might be needed when running on 100% propane would be a slight reduction in the size of the air inlet holes. Just blocking them slightly with a few turns of wire would be enough – if needed.

Cheers

[Hikin’ Jim]

Nick,

Caution is a good thing, but I've experimented with 100% propane in a couple of different forms for my backpacking stoves with no ill effect. It actually works pretty well. I haven't tried them in hot weather, but for that I'd probably just stick with butane or a propane/butane blend.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[anders ahrsjo]

Until 2011 you could get 70% propan/30% Butan mix in alu cans here in Sweden.
About 210 gram gas in a 100 gram spray can with Lindahl valve.
Excellent vinter gas for a Primus EtaPack Lite stove.
I've just packed a few for a trip north (16 h train and 2 h bus).
Cheers

[Author]

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