Is National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS) Ready to Go Light?

[Robert Blean]

Sorry — I did note the NT postings and so added one.

It does seem desirable that replies be in the same thread as the original. What is the mechanism to get the (entire) divergent topic off into its own thread, so that the original is not hijacked?

— Bob

[Ryan Hutchins]

"Does that weight include food for 12-14 days? If so, wow! 14 days at 1.5#/day is 21 lbs all by itself."

Hi Bob,
That weight is with six days of food. We reration in the middle of the course. There has been a lot of discussion amongst those of us involved in the program about running a fully self supported trip for 12-14 days. With careful planning we estimate we could make it happen with packs weighing around 30# (assuming we start with 20# for 6 days!)

BTW we are using a 1.4 #/person/day (ppppd) ration using calorie dense foods based on the Mike C! (who is a NOLS instructor, and lightweight champion at the school) groovy biotic cooking recipies found here on BPL.

I pm'd you about the hijack, no worries.

[Robert Blean]

I do not know the current NOLS goal/philosophy, but back when Papa Paul started NOLS the goal was to prepare leaders for taking youth on outings — everything from your local church group or Boy Scout group to Outward Bound instructors. That meant one consideration was teaching people to use food and equipment that youth groups, especially under-privileged ones, could afford.

That was one of the driving forces behind using NOLS tarps for tents. Also, wool was good — not only was it warm, but one of the really good things about it was that you could put together warm clothing from the thrift shop. Etc.

If that is still a NOLS goal, then going lightweight needs to be thought of in that context. That automatically rules out pricey equipment. Which makes setting up light-weight more of a challenge.

So, someone, please enlighten me as to how much of Papa Paul's goal remains?

— MV

[Ryan Hutchins]

Paul Petzoldts goals are very much at the forefront of what we do at the school today.

Keep in mind that there are a total of 5 lightweight specific courses every year out of hundreds of courses that we run. Arguably, the leadership skills are the same in leading a group in the wilderness regardless of the gear, so lightweight course or not, our graduates should be able to lead people in the mountains with all types of equipment.

The one piece that may (or may not, I only met Paul once) have changed since Paul started the school is a much clearer focus on leadership. We have developed a clear and powerful leadership curriculum that builds on what Paul was doing back then. Don't get me wrong, Paul clearly taught leadership, we have just refined that curriculum to be clearer – and to extend beyond just wilderness leadership. Transference is a very critical focus for us now.

I do think that there is great value in being able to work with what you have, in regards to under privileged populations in particular, but in all cases as well.

My experience is that it is a myth that light weight gear is more expensive than traditional backpacking gear. Sure it is more expensive than thrift store buys, and you certainly can go backpacking by going to thrift store and outfitting yourself in army surplus woolies. but if you are buying backpacking specific gear new anyway, lightweight gear is typically less expensive (excluding some niche and cottage industry companies). Durability can be brought up as a challenge for these programs certainly, though in many cases that is improving as well. But maybe lightweight isn't the right choice for some programs. It certainly isn't for every NOLS course. There is something to be said for the learning that comes through physical challenge, and a heavy pack insures that challenge!

Regardless, lightweight backpacking, despite attempts to market and sell the latest and greatest gear buy manufactures is more about making good decisions. Judgment and decision making is one of the most important skills a leader can have.

An example of the impact of decision making Vs. Equipment is the last Instructor training seminar we ran for the lightweight program. For various reasons, the economy being one, we could not provide participants with a full "kit" of lightweight gear to use for the seminar. We made due with the equipment that people already had and were still able to go out with SUL packs on a three day trip. It just took making better decisions about what to bring and being informed of the conditions we would encounter. The only thing that Instructors had that was different from what they would use on a 30 day course was the pack. This was incredibly powerful for these instructors as it really helped to illustrate that they can decrease their (and more importantly their students) pack weights by simply making better decisions about what to bring.

The core competencies are all the same though. Care of the equipment (whatever that may be), Care of self, care of the environment.

There is a lot more to our skills and leadership curriculum than that, but for me it sums it up pretty well.

[Jeremy Cleaveland]

Thanks for the informative replies. I am Gear Manager for a Wilderness Program in CO, and am looking to gradually replace our backpacks (and other gear) with lighter, better stuff.

We were looking at the Osprey Program Packs, but how does the Golite Oddessy compare in terms of durability, in the abusive context of a camp program?

[Ryan Hutchins]

Jeremy,
We have found that the Golite Odyssey holds up very well. We ran some of the Osprey packs for a while, and we don't any more, for what that's worth. Various reasons, I don't have all the details. In General I am a huge fan of Osprey packs though. One thing that we have come to realize is that our super durable gear can have too long of a life. We have a lot of Older packs that still have some life left but that we have retired and we have had trouble even giving them away. We are currently evaluating our rotation for equipment to make sure we retire stuff before it's useful life is over so we maintain some resale-ability and it is still new enough to be relevant in the market (not obsolete).

We are confident that the Golite packs will hold up well for us, we have been testing them for about 3 years now, and I know a bunch of instructors that have them personally. I'll be borrowing one from a friend to work an instructors course in couple days, and his has 2 solid years of full time field work on it. Another friend just mentioned that they do take a bit more care than a burlier pack, but that she loves it and the increased care is minimal forthe function and weight savings.

[Robert Blean]

Agreed that leading the trip, personal skills on the trip, and outfitting the trip to begin with, are separate skills.

On the outfitting side, original NOLS went as far as to actually issue some thrift store stuff — for example the long sweaters (the body of one sweater sewn to the bottom of another sweater). I do not know how much was NOLS' own finances and how much was a teaching point. At a minimum, they did take advantage of it as a teaching point, though.

"if you are buying backpacking specific gear new anyway" — agree with your point, but the problem is the premise — the idea was to teach ways to avoid buying backpacking specific gear new. To some extent, this was suggesting places like thrift stores. To some extent it was talking about getting a bit creative with the thrift store stuff, such as the long sweater, or sewing a reinforcing patch on the seat of wool pants.

The food was in the same vein — their teaching point was that you could have good food from the grocery store — no need to go to specialty backpacking food.

In the original NOLS spirit, it would be fun to have a thread on who can come up with the *cheapest* lightweight or ultralight pack.

— MV

[Ryan Hutchins]

Excellent points.

I think the gear piece was more a factor of NOLS finances.
Paul actually got himself in some trouble designing, building and then selling gear to the school.
It taught a valuable lesson for sure, but I would bet that those lessons were more a function of need than desire.

Outdoor Education has come along way since those days. It is a career now, Instructors are Professionals, many making a decent living and a career doing this. Many of us have a B.S. M.S. or even Phd in Experiential education. The expectations from parents and students is not to come to an established international program and be outfitted with thrift store gear. Is this good or bad? I don't know, but it is the way of things.

As my mom always told me: "change is inevitable, growth is optional, choose wisely."

Food fortunately has stayed similar to the old days.

I like the "cheapest lightweight kit" kit idea………

Game on!

[Jeremy Cleaveland]

Ryan, thanks for the info. I'll look into them some more.
Very true about gear lasting too long. We have been rotating our mountain bikes out yearly, and want to move that direction with more gear.

What is the upcoming choice in shelter for NOLS? Still tarps, perhaps, but what model? I personally love tarps, and hate zippers, but some here prefer pyramids (we currently have aging Kivas) which are much better than traditional tents.

[Ryan Hutchins]

Our shelter choice depends on course area and course type. For wilderness hiking, we have moved primarily to pyramid style shelters (BD megalight). Mountaineering courses use mountaineering tents of some persuasion depending on the location. Tarps are mostly used at base camps now.

I agree Tarps are awesome, and the art of "tarpology" is being lost in the outdoor community. Etowah gear makes some nice ultralight tarps that you should check out if you go that direction. They say that OB has used them with great success. Our primary reason for going to a 'mid style shelter has been managing fears of eposure to west nile virus. The upside is that the 'mids, even with a bug net liner are lighter than the NOLS Thelma Fly.

[Ryan Hutchins]

Check out new research from the NOLS research department. Since most courses at NOLS use whisperlight stoves, this is pretty exciting for the school. NOLS PNW is already sending pot parka out on courses, NOLS RM will begin this summer from what I hear, and NOLS SW will likely follow suit when we return in the fall.

http://rendezvous.nols.edu//content/view/1900/803/

[Ryan Hutchins]

Leaving tomorrow to work a NOLS SW Instructors course. We will be running this course w/ 8 days of traditional style backpacking, shooting for 40 pound packs, and then switch gear at a re-ration and go lightweight, 20-25 lbs for 9 more days. We'll see how it goes, it's our first time trying it. We'll be in the Gila Wilderness in NM. Trip report to follow…

[Jim Colten]

Interesting course idea. I hope you can report some on your student's before/after impressions.

[Ryan Linn]

I would also be very interested in hearing how that goes. I've been thinking of doing an instructor course since racking up a bunch of americorps education awards, but I've been spoiled for the past couple years with light packs. At the end of the NOLS course I took several years ago, we did a week with 65-70 lbs packs… I don't think I could do that anymore.
Happy trails!

[Ryan Hutchins]

Well, I got back from teaching the hiking section of the NOLS SW Instructors course (IC) yesterday. Students are now out at Cochise Stronghold for their climb camp. We did an eight day ration in traditional style, with a focus on reducing our initial pack weights, followed by a nine day ration using lightweight food and cook systems and further lowering our pack weights. Initial pack weights ranged from a low 38# (I came in at 39#) to a high of 47#. We used a standard NOLS ration of 1.75pppd (pounds per person per day) in the first ration with a traditional NOLS kitchen including the Banks frybake and MSR whisperlite stove. Our shelters were Black Diamond Mega-lights. Tent/cook groups of 3. At NOLS SW, we are making the transition to Ti pots (2L MSR Titan) for 3 person cook groups. We have replaced the standard 6" channel lock pliers used for pot grips with a much much lighter 4" channel locks that weigh significantly less but can still lift a full 2L pot securely.
We spent considerable time prior to heading into the field weighing our gear and coaching the IC students on making smart gear choices to lower their pack weights.

In the second, 9 day ration, we swapped out our traditional cook and food system for Trail Designs Caldera Cone kitchens and a ration designed for these alcohol stoves. The lightweight ration came in at 1.4pppd. Students and staff traded their traditional packs for Golite Jams or Quests with the frame sheet pulled out. We further refined our layering and sleep systems to reduce our base weights. Pack weights at the beginning of this ration came in weighing from ~30-37#'s. Of note is the fact that students were not using much, if any specialized gear beyond the cook system and a switch to trail runners for most. Our shelters remained the same, but we went to 4 person tent groups with 2 person cook groups. Because we had an odd number, I cooked solo using a bush buddy stove.

Above 30# the Jam is reaching it's load carrying capacity, and for the first few days, I wasn't sure students were too excited about the lightweight switch. They liked the efficiency of the cook system, but the packs were a bit "trying" on the shoulders those first three days.
After the packs reached a reasonable carrying weight, Students were very excited about the system.

We practiced lightweight techniques including quickstarts, while still covering the NOLS 4-7-1 leadership curriculum and a lot of natural history curriculum as well as a full LNT Masters certification.

At the end of the hiking section, Students commented on how the lightweight system had changed their perspective on backpacking. In 17 days we covered at least 110 miles both on but mostly off trail in the Gila Wilderness of New Mexico. We traveled through 3rd and 4th class terrain and even swam through canyon potholes in a snow storm. Wether was mostly sunny, though we traveled through snow at 10,000' and saw wet snow and moderate winds as well.

Overall this trial of running a combo traditional/lightweight IC was a huge success. We are excited to get these instructors working courses to share what they learned on their IC about lightweight systems. Currently, NOLS SW is the only NOLS location running an IC in this fashion. Based on the success of this test, we will likely make some small tweaks and continue with it in the future.

Although the lightweight program at NOLS remains a niche, steady and definitive progress continues to be made in reducing pack weights school wide, and expanding the use of lightweight skills.

[Ryan Hutchins]

UPDATE
We ran 2 LW courses this summer out of the Rocky Mountain location, NOLS Southwest has 2 more lightweight courses running right now, woohoo! Running another instructor seminar first week of February, and we will be running the Instructor course as a split again this year (see above post).

[Ryan Hutchins]

http://nols.blogs.com/nols_news/2010/02/nols-instructors-lighten-packs.html.html

Great Seminar with awesome folks. NOLS continues to lead the industry in lightweight backpacking skills education through excellent instructor development and training, experienced instructors and the most in depth risk management in outdoor education.

[CW]

I would argue that BPL's own school leads the industry in skills education related to lightweight back country travel but I suppose that's a subjective statement to make.

[Greg Mihalik]

Ryan,
What are typical base weights (skin out)?
What is the typical food weight, per-person-per-day?
Last, where are these courses being held?

I'm curious how NOLS 'lightweight' translates to the field.

Thanks

[Ryan Hutchins]

Greg,
Base weight and skin out weights are calculated differently. And at NOLS we are focusing on base weights of 8-12 pounds. Obviously this does not include consumables or clothing worn.

Typical food weight is working out to 1.4 ppppd.

Courses are held in the rockies of Wyoming (Absorokas, Winds, Big Horns) in the summer, and in southern Arizona in January, typically in the Galiouros mountains.

[Ryan Hutchins]

Chris can you expand on your argument?

It would be hard for anyone to compare NOLS and BPL without having taken a course with both, and since I haven't I can only rely on information from those that I know who have taught for both.

Like you, I have a relationship with BPL, and I respect what Ryan is doing greatly. I sincerely hope that his school thrives as competition will keep us all fresh.

I'd love to hear more about your opinion on the matter.

[Greg Mihalik]

Ryan,
Thanks for the numbers. They are impressive.

Perhaps there is hope after all.

What a wonderful thought of folks learning how to connect with the outdoors, while leaving the kitchen sink at home.

Nice job.

[Jim Colten]

@Ryan: Encouraging news

@Chris: no doubt that BPL leads the industry if packweight is the prime criteria. But running 4 instructor courses in the past year (8-12 lb base weights) far exceeds the volume of BPL's instuctor training output (zero WTS3 in the past year).

[CW]

Well, for one, BPL was recruited by NOLS to help develop their outdoor program. That says a lot by itself.

The WTS in 2009 ran courses from 3-14 days including instruction on packrafting, lightweight backpacking, and a more specific course based around thru-hiking. There are also courses developed but not being currently run around long distance packrafting and lightweight winter travel. I believe NOLS still runs 2 courses, one in the Rockies and one in the Southwest both with instruction only on lightweight backpacking.

I don't have first hand experience with a NOLS course because, IMO, the leadership-based courses require one to carry far too much weight. The lightweight courses don't offer the leadership component so most of us that are already experienced with lightweight techniques wouldn't get much out of it.

It is true that the WTS has only run 2 instructor training courses where NOLS has run far more. I would argue the reasoning behind that is the WT3 course is far more challenging and thus there hasn't been a lot of interest shown. Of course, I can't say that for certain. I believe the NOLS course is based on teaching existing instructors how to lighten their load. The WT3 course is based on ensuring you are prepared to successfully lead a group expedition in to extreme conditions. The goals are entirely different.

I also don't have the curriculum for both in front of me so I can't say for certain which is more developed. Going off what I do know, I believe the WTS courses offer far more variety in regards to equipment. I'm pretty sure the NOLS courses heavily push GoLite. Feel free to correct me on any of this since I'm going mostly off memory and that can be a bit fuzzy the older I get.

I suppose you could spin the statement in either direction.

[Ryan Hutchins]

Thanks Chris,
It's great to hear an outside perspective of the NOLS Lightweight program.

I'd like to respond to your thoughts here, just to clarify some things, I by no means want this to turn into an argument, as I am a supporter of BPL and of what Ryan is trying to do.

A few thoughts…
Your comments in "quotes"

"Well, for one, BPL was recruited by NOLS to help develop their outdoor program. That says a lot by itself."

True, BPL was recruited to help NOLS get the program started, and that was extremely helpful to the school. NOLS has continued to ask BPL to be involved and BPL has stated that "you [NOLS] don't need us any more, you know what you are doing." There has also been a lot of cross pollination from NOLS to BPL, which has contributed significantly to the development of WTS. NOLS instructor Mike C! ran the WTS school last year. Some of the language on the WTS web page is directly pulled from NOLS, which is great.

"The WTS in 2009 ran courses from 3-14 days including instruction on packrafting, lightweight backpacking, and a more specific course based around thru-hiking. There are also courses developed but not being currently run around long distance packrafting and lightweight winter travel. I believe NOLS still runs 2 courses, one in the Rockies and one in the Southwest both with instruction only on lightweight backpacking."

All the NOLS LW courses are 14 days (13 in the field). NOLS is based on expedition learning, and over the last 45 years we have found this length to be effective for both honing skills and practicing leadership. Though we believe longer is ultimately better, this is the length we have decided on for the LW program (for now).

I'm excited to hear that BPL is developing new courses to be run in the future. NOLS is as well. We have a packrafting course being developed (30 day) and myself and others are trying to internally promote a 30 day unsupported packraft and lightweight backpacking course for outdoor educators. NOLS runs lightweight courses in the rocky mountains and the Southwest. we run between 2-4 courses in the summer out of the rockies, and we ran 2 courses out of the SW this January, so that's 6 courses if enrollment is doing well which it seems to do with these courses.
NOLS is a bigger organization than BPL, and as such, it sometimes takes us longer to make sure all our ducks are in a row. Permits, qualified staff, Insurance, equipment and scouting appropriate course areas all take time. In this case, BPL may be more nimble and able to make things happen faster. I'm not sure faster is always better though.

"I don't have first hand experience with a NOLS course because, IMO, the leadership-based courses require one to carry far too much weight."

Your not required to carry anything more than you need to be safe and comfortable and to be able to support the expedition. On my scale, leadership weighs exactly 0.0 oz.

"The lightweight courses don't offer the leadership component so most of us that are already experienced with lightweight techniques wouldn't get much out of it."

I'm not sure where this information has come from, but it is not true at all. The NOLS lightweight courses offer the same leadership curriculum as our standard courses, albeit in a compressed time frame and with less time to practice the skills (based on course length). The two lightweight courses that just ran in the southwest spoke at length in the student debriefs about the quality and depth of the leadership curriculum and the ability of instructors to effectively deliver it. This aspect of the NOLS curriculum was a highlight for all 20 students.
I will concede that as an experienced LW backpacker, you may not get a ton out of the LW skills, you will though get leadership education and your basic outdoor skills will improve.

"It is true that the WTS has only run 2 instructor training courses where NOLS has run far more. I would argue the reasoning behind that is the WT3 course is far more challenging and thus there hasn't been a lot of interest shown. Of course, I can't say that for certain."

The WT3 may be more challenging than our instructor seminar, but The NOLS Instructor course is extremely challenging. Prior to applying, candidates must have documented experience leading extended (ten days+) wilderness trips, teaching experience and personal wilderness travel experience, in addition to solid wilderness skills such as map reading, off trail navigation and superb camping skills. If accepted, you must arrive to your course with a minimum of a WFR, and then the first day of your course you must take and pass a first aid test as well. After 35 days of training you are assessed and ranked, and then either recommended or not for work. Only after you work your first field course (usually 30 days) are you officially a NOLS instructor. So that's 60 days of training, plus an 80 hr (10 day) WFR, plus countless weeks and months in the mountains before you even get on an IC. Heck, I have a B.S. in experiential education.

"I believe the NOLS course is based on teaching existing instructors how to lighten their load. The WT3 course is based on ensuring you are prepared to successfully lead a group expedition in to extreme conditions. The goals are entirely different."

This is true. We don't think we need to retrain our instructors how to "lead group expeditions into extreme conditions" because they are professionals in the field (see above) and do this as their job all the time. We do need to help them learn how to lower pack weights, consider the differences in curriculum (mostly resources) and risk management on lightweight courses. We also try to hold our trainings during a time when there is a high probability for challenging conditions. With all due respect, to suggest that BPL staff are better trained is, as you might say, a bit of a stretch.

"I also don't have the curriculum for both in front of me so I can't say for certain which is more developed. Going off what I do know, I believe the WTS courses offer far more variety in regards to equipment. I'm pretty sure the NOLS courses heavily push GoLite. Feel free to correct me on any of this since I'm going mostly off memory and that can be a bit fuzzy the older I get."

NOLS does recommend Golite equipment because they have actively supported and stayed involved in our lightweight program, and in general we have found GoLite gear to be a good balance of weight Vs. durability, though they are experiencing some weight creep. If you go to our website and look at the equipment list for the lightweight courses, you will see that we also recommend other companies, including BPL/BMW.
NOLS uses Caldera Cones, though we also bring esbits and Anti gravity gear .4 oz pop can stoves. We use a variety of shelters, though this is an area that we could reduce our weights further.
I don't think though that either NOLS or BPL would say that their curriculum is based off the equipment they use, rather it is based on the skills needed to safely and efficiently travel in the lightweight style.

Again I hope this clarifies the NOLS program a bit. Although I have spent countless hours talking to NOLS Instructors who work for BPL about the BPL program, I will leave it to them to chime in w/ their experience b/t the two. I prefer not to assume I know the details of a program I have not worked for. In the end, I think both NOLS and BPL are great programs offering similar yet still unique educational opportunities. There are things you will get out of a NOLS course that you won't get from BPL and vice versa I am sure.

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