what lines work with the Lineloc 3 ladder?

[Michael Cheifetz]

i know the spec says 2.5mm….and my Kelty triptease works great – but i was wondering if anyone had specific experience with these linelocs (like the ones that come OEM on the trailstar)
have you tried using it with
Gossamergear EZC (2mm)
Lawsone Ironwire (2mm or maybe 2.25
Zpacks Zline 2.2 mm??

Thanks
Mike

[Andrew F]

Anything smaller than the supplied 3mm cord (including Triptease) will slip at some point. You may not notice this under normal conditions, but in high winds or high shelter tension there will be some slippage. You can test this out by pulling hard on a loop on the LineLoc; eventually the load strand pops past the unloaded strand and you get slippage.

The green Nite Ize reflective cord is a slightly lighter alternative to the 3mm cord which will NOT slip. I have tried the Gossamer Gear line and it slips at about the same point as Triptease. I use Triptease even though it slips and tie a slippery half hitch just under the LineLoc once I have it where I want.

Andrew

[Michael Cheifetz]

Andrew

I just tried it at home with triptease (which specs say is 3mm btw) and a 2.2mm pure spectra line form zpacks…and it didnt slip.
Now i assume at SOME strength it will slip but i wonder if that is really practical since i imagine the stakes would start moving first.

Did you actually manage to pull the triptease out just with holding the line in one hand and the lineloc in the other casually or did it take tying it to the wall and pulling and such?
Mike

[Harald Hope]

Lawson glowire works well with lineloc3. I believe that's 2.2 mm.

I used that for my myog backpack compression, and for some other parts, it's nice, it has a rough exterior and seems to hold very well.

Tarptent also uses a similarly sized cord with its built in lineloc3 adjusters, somewhere in the 2-2.2mm range, and that also works well.

The stuff with the smoother exteriors I'd have some doubts about, both of the above are some kind of dacron type sheath over the core, and that seems to be fine with lineloc3, which is I assume also why tarptent uses that.

When you see it, you can tell that it will hold fine, I got zero slipping on my pack, nor on my tarptent.

[diego dean]

Using lineloc3 with my Lawson glowire, it will slip with enough tension or I can high wind conditions. I found this out using a super fly tarp for hammock ing. Lots of tension on the curved Ridgeline and it will slip badly. I'm looking for an alternative now but I really liked the glowire,

[Mole J]

My experience :

Tarptent supplied line slips if wet and buffeting winds. This from wild nights in the UK hills. (The Scarp was fine btw). A stopper knot was needed for a stable pitch in such conditions.

Other 2.5mm and thinner also slips if wet and buffeted.
I changed all my Scarp lines for 3mm braided line. That hasn't budged so far ( looks like what MLD use)

David on Oware site illustrates a thin line solution- ie double wrap.

[Michael Cheifetz]

Mole- so why don't you double thread?

Also talked to Lawson that said it worked fine… I wonder if that has to do with test environment (ie wet and what kind of load) or the type of line(eg what seath material etc)

Troubling no doubt as these linelocs are really cool but getting a line thicker than 2mm or there about seems really excessive.

[Andrew F]

To get them to slip, you have to pull pretty hard with some of these cords, like >30 lbs with fingers looped through both ends. And it depends on the specific LineLoc- some of them hold better than others due to manufacturing variance. But I noticed on my Trailstar and Spinnshelter that the triptease guylines would slip slowly during normal use resulting in a slack shelter until I started tying half hitches. The half hitches solve the problem completely, but if you are going to tie knots anyway, it's tempting to just cut the LineLoc's off. It's too bad there isn't a LineLoc built for 2mm cord.

[Mole J]

Mike. I found that with doubling thin line , the linelocs don't work as smoothly as with single. I want simplicity- I use 3mm on the Scarp pitchlock ends (10 linelocs in all) and 2 mm with the side guys and one lifter . The extra weight of 3mm is negligible on a tent that weighs nearly 1.4kg (50oz) with the additional guys/stakes needed for a full pitch.

For a tarp with long lines (scarps pitchlock guys are quite short) I'd likely use 1.5 or 2 mm.

As I do on the Hex3 I have modded with mid panel lifters.

but really, ignoring bulk, weightwise 3 mm line over 2 mm is a slurp of whisky or a half of a snickers bar – neither here nor there when carrying 4 days food.

[Michael Cheifetz]

so what line do you use?
i gather that the issue is that even if a line is rated @3mm since its really hard to measure at these thin diameters – it could function worse…

Mike

[diego dean]

I ordered and should have tomorrow the NiteIze green line to use with my lineloc 3's. I have been putting it off and just using my glowire, but I got pretty frustrated when trying to set my tarp up in the wind the other day and they kept slipping under load. I think the Niteize is 2.3 MM so we shall see.

[Here There]

I've used the niteize green line but the way the reflective pattern is made doesn't let it adjust very smoothly. It's a minor annoyance, so I picked up some glowire to see if it works in the conditions I generally find myself in.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Any more info on this issue. A couple of you were going to do some experimenting and get back to us.

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Nico .]

I've been using the Kelty Triptease with my Trailstar for the last year or so. Usually the lines work great and hold fine with the linelocs however I recently camped in a setting where we really had to batten down the shelter tight to the ground to hold steady in the 40-50 mph winds and I experienced the triptease slipping under tension. I had to tie off the lines to prevent any further slippage.

I don't think any thinner lines would reliably hold under tension or in heavier winds. I will probably eventually switch the main ridge line guy lines back to a slightly thicker line to ensure better grip in the linelocs.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I like using reflective lines for my shelter. These are commonly made in a few sizes: 2mm, 2.5m and 3mm I believe. The most commonly known one is Kelty triptease (3mm) but lots of places sell or use a 2mm variant, including Lawson, Locus Gear, TarpTent, MEC etc. Gossamer Gear used to sell one (their EZ2C line). Personally I like the MEC one because it's green which goes nicely with my olive green cuben DuoMid.

If you need to ensure 0 slippage in extreme environments, go 2.5 or 3mm but for virtually all normal use the 2mm stuff is great. It's what I'm using for the perimeter guy outs on my mid, where even if it did slip it a bit it's only a few inches away from the stopper knot at the end of the line. For really important guy outs (ie. ridgeline of a A frame), you could go with a thicker line to ensure 0 slippage, but I'd still chop some weight and just use a few feet of the heavier line at the LineLoc, and tie that to some thinner line for the rest of the length.

Sea2Summit appears to sell a 1.8mm reflective line, which is likely too small to work well with LineLoc3's but it could be tied to thicker line used at the tensioner.
http://www.traveluniverse.com.au/Grey-Reflective-Cord-1-8mm-by-Sea-to-Summit/ARC10M.htm#.UJQXNrSzeEk

EDIT: Locus Gear has a 1.7mm as well:
http://locusgear.com/products/accessories/dcrgl17

[Lawson Kline]

Lineloc 3's have a design flaw and no matter the cord size everything slips to some degree. On the bottom were the cord converges its a U shape and it should of been a V shape.. People think that its a cord size issue but this is not the case at all, its a design issue. All 2mm cords and up work great. If you have any slippage, all you have to do is tie a slippery half hitch after the Lineloc 3 and the buckle will break before it slips.. Good Luck : )

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Lawson

> its a U shape and it should of been a V shape
I think I know just what you mean, but if you have a photo of that bit of the device it would be great!

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

And was just about to use linelocs and cord for a pack frame with very high tension and something akin to buffeting created by walking. Back to smaller beefy ladderlocks.

Lawson, I am sure you are right. Nothing else explains the very inconsistent results reported on the posts. Sounds like they are still good for tents, though.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Lawson,

I'm guessing you are referring to the circle in this photo?

Here's a photo of a quick release lineloc. It looks a little different.

This last photo is a similar device from an REI tent about 10 years old. If you look carefully you will see a slit. After pulling the cord tight you reverse the directionn of pull on the cord and jam it up into the slit. My experience is that these things hold absolutely. No slipping. Could never get my hands on any except for the ones on the tent, however.

Daryl,
This post reveals more about you than than the linelocs. Showing photos of your linelocs instead of your non-existent grand kids……..and on a Friday night? My god man, get a life…or at least go down to Chaff where they understand people like you.
Daryl

[Lawson Kline]

Thanks for the Photo Daryl : ) I drew an arrow where the U is. Its on the bottom side and is the place that is suppose to lock the cord in place but it doesn't because its a U and not a V… I am not sure why ITW Nexus didn't catch this when they designed it but its an obvoius design flaw. If they would of made it a V the Lineloc 3's would of probably worked with 1mm cord.. If anyone wants to take a photo of it, turn it over and shoot a photo at a 90 degree angle from the finger tab to the webbing slot. I hope this make sense.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Lawson,

Here are some more photos. Is # 1 what you requested?

ONE

TWO

THREE

FOUR

FIVE

[David Chenault]

In short, I'm not buying it.

I didn't design Linelocs and thus can't speak definitively; but I don't think jamming in the U-slot is the primary method of retention. Look at a picture of a Petzl Reverso or other plaquette style belay device. Force from the "in" side of the line smashing the "out" side down is what makes it work. The gen.1 Reverso just had a smooth metal bar there and worked fine. Of course, they had to make the Reversino for sub8mm twin ropes, which points to the real problem. Use fat cord close to that which will fit through the Lineloc, and you'll have to problems. Slick Dyneema doesn't help either, and quite frankly adds no value as tarp guyline. The Linelocs will break long before the strength of 3mm nylon cord is significantly challenged. I've had shelters with Linelocs out in 70 mph gusts and while there was stress on the anchors themselves, the locs were not slipping.

[Daryl and Daryl]

David,

Z Packs sells a flat cord they say works well with the linelocs.

Here's a link (scroll down to the bottom).

flat cord

[Daryl and Daryl]

OK, the flat line idea opens up a few low cost options for lineloc lines. Here's a photo of utility cord options that can routinely be found on those sporting good section racks of camping accessories.

I can't speak for all of them but I did try the orange cord shown on the far right. It has a very snug "I promise not to slip" feel to it when under tension. Even when not under tension it has a "I will hold this position until you come back" feel to it. This latter characteristic appeals to me for some applications (e.g. a front bag-to-pack frame connection cord).

[Sam Farrington]

Don't know about the climbing gizmos David is referring to, but the notch is clearly necessary to keep the cords positioned one atop the other in the buckle so it will create the friction between the cords needed for it to work. Suspect that if the notches wear down over time, the LL3s will slip.

If the notch had the 'V' discussed, it might be much harder to tighten under tension.
But if the cord is of sufficient diameter to slide but fit fairly tightly in the notch, the taper in the notch should retard slippage under tension, as David mentions. Since the device also depends greatly on the friction between the two cords, it also seems important that the cord not have a slick surface.

Will stick with the LL3s for the pack after all, but test to be sure that the cord is large and rough surfaced enough to hold well. Will start with Triptease, and note that the stuff directly from Kelty appears a little larger in diameter than the stuff from TarpTent. I did not want to use ladderlocks because nylon webbing will stretch, and I need zero stretching for the application. LL3s with Dyneema in the cord seemed by far the lightest way to achieve the desired result.

Daryl, you could always ask someone to take sole custody of your camera on the weekends. Those are nice photos, though. Must be a good camera.

[Author]

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