Extreme Light Gear List… Try to make even lighter!

[Al Shaver]

Paul,
Thanks for expressing appreciation for my posts-BAYB! (Back At Ya, Buddy). My learning curve has increased exponentially over the last few weeks from all the information, ideas and opinions that I’ve read and conversations that I’ve been a part of. Thanks to all!

Re. the last paragraph of my last post: I’m sure formulas for heat transmision can be found in any basic physics reference publication. The following is what I was told by a physicist working at Los Alamos National Labs while I was living in Santa Fe.

Heat energy is proportional to Large Constant X Temperature Squared (this refers to conduction) + Medium Constant X Temperature Cubed (this refers to convection) + Small Constant X Temperature to the Fourth Power (this refers to radiation).

From examining this formula one can see that for low (human) temperatures, the large constant makes conductive heat loss the most influential mode of heat transmission. While the smaller constants of convection and radiation resign them to being of minimal influence. Their larger exponents are not able to express their influence at these small temperature values. The higher the temperature, the less influential the constant becomes as the power of the exponent takes over. So that as we reach high temperatures (far beyond that of the human body) with the temperature to the 4th power expressing the influence of radiation, the large constant headstart given to conduction cannot compete. And this is why reflective films are of virtually no value in keeping human bodies warm and why insulation is. P.S. Please don’t tell this to Western Mountaineering. It will only upset them.

Re. your comment on space capsules: Because they operate in a vacuum where conductive heat loss is impossible (there is no matter in a vacuum to conduct heat to) the only way to impose an effect on heat transmission is to reflect radiation -with gold foil, which can be as thin as 4 atoms thick, being an excellent tool with which to accomplish this. Additionally, since there is no atmosphere to absorb radiation in space and so many sources of radiation; radiation reflective films take on an even greater importance.

This can all be summed up by the eternal question: If there’s no sound in space…why does a vacuum make so much noise?

It is interesting to note that the manned space program is a sister science of our passion (albeit better funded). You think 40 miles/day unsupported is a daunting goal? Try escaping the pull of gravity. No really; try it! The Apollo Program’s LEM (Lunar Excursion Module) was constructed so obsessively light in order to be able to escape the Moon’s pull with minimal thrust that the astronauts could severely dent the wall of the capsule by simply punching it with their fists. Forget an overnighter without a tent. That’s exposed!

Your prohibited watershed camping story reminded me of my own 15 years ago above Vancouver B.C.’s Grouse Mountain Ski Area. My Canuck girlfriend and I hiked to the knife edge ridge defining the city’s watershed boundary to climb on an obviously named formation known as The Camel. We pitched our Chouinard pyramid tent using only rock pro and climbed as sightseeing helicopters buzzed us. I’m not sure of the legality of our encampment, but we maintained the ethics of our aerie settlement by peeing with impunity but making sure to hang our backsides over the edge into the adjoining watershed to poop and smear.

Thanks for prompting a fond scatalogical memory, Al

[paul johnson]

Alan,

thanks for the reply & the formula. good explanation. readily understandable.

take care,
pj

[Bill Fornshell]

I have been triming things and checking weight before and after. On my scale I weigh the Platpus 1L that I have as 0.93oz for one or 1.86 for 2. The current list has 1.6oz for 2 Platypus 1L bottles. There are 2 possible caps for this bottle (soft bottle), one is the pull cap at 0.16oz vs the non-pull cap at 0.09oz. If I was carrying two of these 1 L bottles I would use one pull cap and one non pull cap and save 0.07oz for a two bottle weight total of 1.79oz not the 1.6oz as stated.

Can someone check this so we can all use the correct weight.

I have finished modifing 2 of my – 1200ml Feeding Tube Water Bags for my SUL gear list. The weight of one is 0.35oz and I am using 2 metal clips to close the top. I rolled the top a couple of times and attached the clips. They work fine but now think I will get the top opening heat sealed closed. I can fill the water bag through the bottom outlet and save 0.48oz. I have a wooden plug in the bottom to close the bottom outlet. The weight of one 1200ml water bag will be 0.40oz each after I get them heat sealed.

Adding these water bags to the list and removing the Platypus bottles will drop one ounce from the total weight.

Next I will make a Cook Pot out of a Sterno can. The Sterno Can Cook Pot will weigh 0.40oz and hold 12fl oz. It is wider than the Fosters can so it should boil water faster using an Ebsits tablet. This change will drop another 0.45oz.

I am going to remake the list using my home made gear, done or planned, and see what I end up with.

[paul johnson]

clever ideas, Bill. i really like the cook-pot.

are those bags robust enough for a thru-hike?

will the metal clips cause any long term abrasion?

[Richard Nelridge]

Bill,

Do you think that any remaining remnants from the Sterno will be of concern using the can as a Cook Pot?

[Bill Fornshell]

Paul: Thanks. I just keep thinking how much water do I need for a meal.

The gear list started out as something for a SUL “overnighter” For that these water bags should be fine. They might even work for a longer hike such as an AT Thru-Hike. I might start with the water bags and if they are to much trouble switch over to the Platypus 1L bottles. I am going to replace the metal clips by heat sealing the top opening of the bags closed.

Richard: I will steel wool the inside of the Sterno can to remove what ever they use in there. Then wash it a couple of times. That should work.

[Joshua Mitchell]

bill, you could also burn the remaining sterno out, then as some food-grade alcohol (aka everclear) and light again. that should get pretty much all of the organics out easier than tried to “wash” it. or, I guess I should say it should make washing it easier.

[Bill Fornshell]

I scooped out the sterno and then let what was left burn away. Then I sanded the inside – bottom and sides. Then I cleaned it with comet and dish soap using a scrub pad. Boiled water has no taste so I have given the cook pot a GO.

[Aaron Sorensen]

Hey Bill,

I sure have learned a lot from this thread. First of all nice input.
I just ordered all the supplies and material to make a few balloon beds.

First, would it work if you just capped the ends with material and made the shell with a few horizontal and diaganal strips sewn together to hold the balloons if each strip is sewn with a compartment for each balloon?

Also, I am looking at putting a Gossamer Gear thin-lite pad on top of it for both insulation and comfort.
I would be willing to bet you have some around and would like to know your opion on each factor.
Thank’s

[David Lewis]

Bill:

If you want to count bug dope and sunscreen etc. as consumable… that’s fine… but the weight of it’s container has to be in the base weight since that part of it’s weight will be a constant.

One question… how do you manage to count batteries as consumable?!?! They weigh the same new as they do dead and used up… and you have to carry them out.

One thing this made me think of actually was the weight of all our packaging. Ever weight your trash bag after a trip?! It can be half a pound… easy. Solution? Make all your own food and package it all in paper :) But I’m not about to start worrying about what buckets my weight gets put in… not to THAT degree.

[Bill Fornshell]

David said:
Comment 1- If you want to count bug dope and sunscreen etc. as consumable… that’s fine… but the weight of it’s container has to be in the base weight since that part of it’s weight will be a constant.

Reply 1 – I agree an empty container for bug dope, sunscreen, etc if used should count as Pack weight like an empty water bottle does. So what if I make my own bug dope and sunscreen in a way that it takes the form of something like a candle and does not require packaging like a liquid does. Then can I count it as “0”? I want to list “everything” I consume separtately so I don’t forget about it when I am doing my resupply. Skin out weight to me is naked on a scale and record my weight, then get on the scale wearing or carring everything as if I am ready to take my first step on the trail. The second weight or trail weight is my total what ever it is called.

Comment 2- One question… how do you manage to count batteries as consumable?!?! They weigh the same new as they do dead and used up… and you have to carry them out.

Reply 2 – I am working on this one. If you saw the backpack thing that charged a battery, I am working on a pair of trail shoes that have a bunch of little springs in the sole that with each step compress and put a little charge into a battery. I am having a small problem with water shock that I need to work out.

Comment 3 – One thing this made me think of actually was the weight of all our packaging. Ever weight your trash bag after a trip?! It can be half a pound… easy. Solution? Make all your own food and package it all in paper :) But I’m not about to start worrying about what buckets my weight gets put in… not to THAT degree.

Reply 3 – This is the comment that wins you a prize. Your words “made me think” is why all these lists are worth reading. I have read comments on other web sites about the SUL lists posted here. Most of there comments are like – this is all crazy, silly, a joke etc. Those folks are not smart enough to see where some of this can “Make them think, help them think ” of ways to use one or more of these idea’s or a part of an idea to help them lighten there pack weight. They are “Stuck on Stupid”.

[paul johnson]

David,

agree with your points on consummables (for the purposes of calculating base pack wt.). i’ve seen over the months in many other threads, varying items included/excluded from the “consummables” category. for my part, i’m very strict – only considering fuel (but not the L’il Nipper holding the alc.), water, and food. i count my one emergency Esbit tab in my base pack wt, however. since it’s not intended to be used normally as fuel – emergency use only. things like T.P., for example, while consummable, are pretty light. would probably only not count it in base pack weight, if i needed to break a “barrier” (e.g. a 5lb barrier). but then, i “cheat” anyways, as i put my 1oz Swiss Army Knife in a pants’ pocket (where else would i really carry it if i want it to be handy?), so it doesn’t count towards base pack wt.

good idea on the paper packaging. it can serve multiple uses. only drawback is it’s not O.P. – even if bears aren’t an issue, rodents usually are. i’ve heard from a co-worker of squirrels (i’m talking Eastern Grey Squirrels here, not Flying Squirrels) actually launching themselves off of trees to land on his hanging bag (bet he wasn’t “stealth camping”, but rather using established campsites – his usual mode as he’s not yet a convert to the UL movement).

[paul johnson]

Bill,

amazing. “bug dope..candles”. i’m assuming that they are soft – sorta’ like stick deodorant, so, therefore, a rub on. your ingenuity never ceases to amaze me. guess i’m stuck “inside the box” sometimes. by now, i should be applying some of my work problem solving skills, to my favorite pastime – just like you’re doing. unfortunately, i don’t possess your fabrication skills, nor ingenuity. but “bug dope candles”, that i might be able to do.

actually, for my typical shorter treks, the tiny bottles and jars i purchased on this website add very little weight, so, for me, they aren’t a concern. now, you’re preparing to undertake a thru-hike, so your creative approach is more understandable, even quite commendable.

Bill, regarding gear lists, even on this website (rarely, but from time to time it happens) there are comments from someone who just doesn’t get it about the the gear lists. someone a couple/few months ago (an “Anon.” if i recall correctly), did this with a subject (Cuben??? can’t recall) that you were discussing in a Thread.

>>”Stuck on Stupid”
happens to all of us. guys at work will occasionally hear me say “Johnson, you idiot!” when i realize i was temporarily “Stuck on Stupid”. [BTW, those with a good sense of humor, now say, when they do something stupid…you guessed it…not their own names, but rather..”Johnson, you idiot!!!” – very funny guys i work with.]

>>”Make them think”
the bitmap i’ve used for the desktop wallpaper on my Laptop & PC’s for many years now is a fullscreen picture of “Winnie-the-Pooh” tapping one paw to his forehead, and with the words “Think, Think, Think” over his head. if you’re familiar with “Pooh”, it’s a classic Pooh pose.

Stopping and thinking is always a good idea. Asking oneself the question, “What is the other person thinking of?”, or “What do they know that i’m missing?” is often helpful. I, for one, the older i get, the more i realize how little i truly know (sounds sorta’ “Zen”-ish. maybe there’s hope for me yet?)

[Bill Fornshell]

Paul thanks for your comments. Humor is a good icebreaker.

The candle-like bug dope really isn’t new. take a walk through your local WalMart Garden Center. Put it into something like a very small waxed cardboard tube and then just burn the tube as a fire starter when it is empty.

This is a all about taking a little time to look, think and try things. Not everything will work but some part of some may turn into something that dose.

Did you see the notice about the two new SUL tarps Ryan just posted? Do you guess there is a Cuben connection at play there?

[paul johnson]

Bill,

>>”icebreaker”
guess my intentions didn’t go astray.

didn’t see the notice on the two tarps. do recall reading a week or so ago that Dr. J was testing a new, tiny, little tarp (think it doubled as a “string bikini” for the California beaches??? (NO! not on Dr. J that’s not what i mean) …but, i could be mistaken. maybe, it was a multi-use bandana/mini-tarp? ). i’ll snoop around the BPL website for those “posts” you mentioned. if i can’t find them, i’ll post back & you can guide me. take care, pj

Edit:
Bill,

found the pics. all of them very nice & Dr. J’s commentary too – very concise; says a lot with few wordsd. tarp looks good. prob. a tad too small for my skill level. the fabric seems to have some pluses over spinn based upon Dr. J’s comments. how does that ‘Nano’ fabric compare with your Cuben?

[David Lewis]

Paul: I can’t take credit for the paper packaging idea actually. I read that in Beyond Backpacking. Ray would package his own custom grain mix in paper and burn the paper. Reduces your trash weight and also reduces the amount of plastic you have to use.

Bill: Excellent point about resupply… i.e. not wanting to forget anything. Ny only other thought however about counting things like bug so consumable… for the purposes of calculating pack weight… is that my food, water and fuel will always get used up completely. But something like bug dope… if it’s September let’s say… you still have to bring it… but you may not end up using any of it. So none of it is consumed :) Same with sunscreen if you go out for a week and it’s only sunny one day.

[mark henley]

Or just use a Snowpeak 600 Mug with foil for the lid … about 2.8 oz

[Ryan Faulkner]

earliar in this forum people were talking about using beer cans as cook pots
Jordan Calicott said:
“If I’am not able to attain a beer can, as I’am underage to drink alcohol, can I just use a coke can or something like that?”
well yes you can use a coke can using a can adapter described on zenstoves.net but me being under age as well searched for another way.
I use a 24oz Arizona corp can (not 16oz can) and was able to get the weight down to .6oz instead of .85 and still be able to boil 16oz of water.
I use a mini bull designs elite stove without a can adapter and it fits perfect in the ridges on the bottom of the can.
for the rest of my cook kit look at this page
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/1345/index.html

[Russ Zandbergen]

Hi Jordan,

I know this is an older post, but I just
came across it.

Great list.

Couple of comments:

My cookset based on a SP Bowl
(1.75 oz, about 650ml), custom
stove and windscreen is a bit lighter
then your set up. Very efficient fuel
usage saving some weight as well.
My system uses about 1/2 the
fuel of a typical preasure stove.
Your Brasslite with a proper wind screen is an efficient stove as well.

Maybe save you 2oz on an overnight,
another oz or so in fuel savings on
a 3 day trip.

Also: there are some packs out there now taht could save you a bit,
Look @ http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/index.php

Mountain Laurel Designs, has a couple of lighter packs and a hoodless poncho
that could replace your rain jacket and your spinshelter @ about the same weight
as your current shelter.

My 2 cent’s, again great list.

[Author]

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