Tunnel Tents Tutorial and State of the Market Report – Part 2: Details and Commercial Models

[Addie Bedford]

Companion forum thread to:

Tunnel Tents Tutorial and State of the Market Report – Part 2: Details and Commercial Models

[Robin Evans]

Thanks Roger

This is the best series of articles on BPL for a long time.

Some of the insights are fascinating, especially as you've made your own tents.

Superb. Up with your series on stoves, which is an all time classic.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Kerri

> what Ti wires are and what they do
See first pic under 'Pegs' at http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Pegs.htm#Pegs, stake D, an orange-painted titanium wire stake. (We call them pegs in Australia.)

I am quite sure that there are many pics and discussions about them here in the BPL Forums as well – I'm lazy and I use my FAQ as a reference because I know exactly where to go.

What do they do? Well, they hold my tent down (or up) of course. :-)
But why them and not other things? Two main reasons. They are very light and they hold quite well in most soils if fully sunk. And they can be hammered in with a rock if needs be: the Ti wire is extremely strong and stiff. Yes, I have hammered them in between rocks at times.

Any stake sunk only part-way (rocks underground for example) is unreliable. In such cases we normally pile a few rocks on top of the stake and the guy rope.

Where to buy? Search around: they come from various places. Maybe someone else can give a current vendor. One very strong recommendation: buy the orange ones, not the unpainted ones. The unpainted ones can get lost so fast when dropped on the ground it isn't funny!

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bradley

> ability to reduce IR losses on clear nights
Hum … OK, understood.
I am not sure how successful that is however. It needs testing.

Cheers

[Michael Cheifetz]

I read the back and forth on some other thread …but i though Josh was teasing….

but if not – i want one

[James McIntosh]

Love my Macpac Minaret. Though I've always thought internal guys running from the bottom ofone side to high on the other side would improve it in cross wind.

Roger, what's the mechanics of the inner guys, given that the poles are in the fly?

[Derek Goffin]

Hi James,
I have installed internal guys on a Nallo. The front one avoids the inner by going across the door but as Roger points out the inner guy must go from fly to fly so for the rear there is a removeable inner guy across the inner tent and permanent links from the anchor points of the inner guy to the fly by the outer guys to avoid the elastic supports provided by Hilleberg which are not rigid enough to do the job.
If you had a tunnel with no pole guys the best you could do internally would be an X of inner guys as you suggest. However better still would be to install external pole guys, then linking the external guys with the inner guy makes a solid structure better than X guys in my opinion

[Roger Caffin]

Hi James

There are two sorts of inner guys:
* Horizonally across from side to side
* Diagonal from ground to (near the) peak.
They are very different in function.

The horizontal ones are designed to handle vertical loading: downward wind gusts and snow loading. They are really only ever needed well above the tree line. External guy ropes cannot handle the downward-loading problem.

The diagonal ones increase the curvature in the poles, which effectively makes the poles stiffer. Good external guy lines can often replace these. They help the poles resist sideways movement from normal horizontal wind.

Yes, all internal guys need to connect to the poles or pole sleeves. In a single skin tent this is simple. In a double-skin tent you can only diectly connect the guys to the inner tent, so there needs to be a connection between the inner tent and the pole sleeve where the internal guy connects. This connection really should be non-elastic. I use hook&loop tape for this, and both lab testing and field testing shows it works fine. Elastic connections between inner and fly are fine except when you want to use internal guys, as noted by Derek.

Cheers

[Kerri Larkin]

Ah! Now it's all clea; they're tent pegs ;) I thought you were referring to something like the 'Dead Man' or snare type of hold down where the wire is buried under the ground.

Thanks Roger – love this review!

[James Marco]

As I said in the past, a perfect ultra light solution never exists for all conditions. I agree totally with Roger. He has *two* tents that are most often used when he is with his partner. They appear to be similar, but the engineering and practical construction details behind using two different tents sort'a precludes using a single tent with a detachable inner liner. This can also be problem when presented to anyone in terms of comercialization. I am afraid that much of the basic design will be lost if it does go comercial. Production is not ammenable to a lot of the details that Roger presents. That said, I wish it were possible.

Typically, cottage gear is a very tiny market for those who simply want the best thay can get in some category. Example: In some cases weight is a super high criteria. You live, eat and breath weight. An 8oz pack is simply too heavy. In the cottage market, you can find a pack for 3oz, with accessories, 5oz. the 3oz weight savings is the driving factor.

In that same market, durability is important. There are a few people (like me) that continue to use the venerable and somewhat heavier SVEA 123. It works and has worked for the past 40 years or so. No maintenence and highly efficient. Others, like Roger, place a value on extreme conditions. High winds, heavy rains, etc. Warm and dry at night is about all you can ask for. It works. As said, I like my Exped Sirius for really tough going. But, it doesn't have a place in a 10lb pack at almost 6lbs. It is NOT for solo use. 2#8, I would consider, but even that's a heck of lot.

So, as much as we would like to have Rogers tents out there and available, I sort'a doubt there will be any takers from the big named companies. The niche market says it will never sell as well as other tents with bigger names. He will probably need to do it all himself for slave wages reinvested till he can make the large dollar volume purchases that drive costs down. He will be competing with old and well established firms, Hilleberg in particular, on weight, mostly. Roger needs a gimmick, that he can patent, to make it work. Better vents, better poles, etc…besides the higher quality of craftsman production. Like I say, a hard sell.

From engineering tubular designs (I build UL canoes,) I know how difficult it is to translate a seemingly perfect design into a practical expresion of your paper concept. As Roger points out, he has had many iterations on the same theme. As a MYOG project, these are great. Without the tooling to make the poles, without the correct size of tubing (a few thousands in an arrow shaft make little difference,)without the correct inner canopy materials sought out and purchased, without a ready supply of labour, this can be a problem for most of us.

Anyway, just some thoughts…

[Stuart Murphy]

There are tents that do most things well. For example, if you aren't too preoccupied with weight (and say favour longevity) the Wilderness Equipment Arrow tents (second and First) work in all Australian seasons (including snow) with exemplary ventilation and ease of ingress/egress.

Re commercialisation of Roger's tent…

I wonder if the design may be gifted to the community if Roger decides it is not commercially viable (for the standard of workmanship, materials he is seeking), if there were enough interest maybe the community could produce the tents as a not for profit thing, kind of like an open source initiative. I have no idea how this might work in practice but it opens up the possiblity of people improving on the design and reinvesting that in the community (all things being equal more users = more testing = more experience = more improvements than one person can hope to accomplish).

Anyway, just a thought… at least people (like me) who don't MYOG and could then benefit from Roger's considerable investment in his design.

Of course if Roger can feasibly produce/sell the tent and he wants to then he should.

[Diplomatic Mike]

In my opinion, a tunnel is the choice of the solo hiker in very windy conditions.
Trying to pitch a 'pop up' or geo in high winds can be almost impossible if solo. The chance of pole breakage during pitching is high, and trying to peg a fly over an inner pitch tent is very difficult if you only have 2 arms.

[David Ure]

Mike – you are correct, in my opinion.

Here are some Hilleberg videos on pitching a tunnel.

[Diplomatic Mike]

@ Dave.
I might change my mind if someone makes a Wedge with pole sleeves on the outside, and a door that is more user friendly. :)

[David Ure]

No – that would be too simple. I wonder if designers actually use their products sometimes….

[Andrew Bishop]

Good (and relevant) video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1iJvk6tKs4&feature=g-all-lik&context=G28fabf7FAAAAAAAATAA

[Roger Caffin]

Hi James, and all

Right now I am discussing the production of my designs with a large outdoors gear company. NO further details yet, and NO deadlines either. We are talking, but NO promises. However,

> I am afraid that much of the basic design will be lost if it does go comercial.
> Production is not ammenable to a lot of the details that Roger presents.
Commercialisation will ONLY go ahead if all the important details of the design are preserved. That is not a negotiable point for me. Fortunately, that does not seem to be a problem for the other party. Yes, they are aiming at the high end – but the American market is still huge.

Will it happen? Dunno.

Cheers

[Miles Spathelf]

I was curious if you ever thought about selling plans for make-it-yourself tents (with an NDA if you plan on producing them commercially) I really like my hilleberg but there seems like there are many areas that the weight could be reduced.

Thanks for the aluminized pe recommendation…I had not thought of that previously.

Cheers!

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Miles

> selling plans for make-it-yourself tents
For the future.

Cheers

[James Marco]

Roger,
Yeah. "Well it might be a little easier to manufacture if we…" You retain control of production, they can still steal your ideas, though. No matter…just come up with a better one, unless they also purchase your market share.
I wish you the best of luck in any discussions. Tunnel tents are just real good for bad weather.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi James

Yeah, I know. I'll wait and see.

Cheers

[Josh Leavitt]

Rather than answer all the emails I recieved, and just to be clear for the future. I will NOT be building rodgers tunnel tent, I never was going to. The back story on this, is that there was a bet between me and others in the industry, about these, and other recent "articles". I made some claims, and was challenged, so a bet was proposed. Needless to say, I made an easy $50 bucks.

[Jerry Adams]

You're teasing us

What were your claims and what was the bet?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Josh

As an interested party in this, details?
And do I get a percentage?

Cheers

[Mary D]

Too bad it was just a bet! I sure fell for it! I personally think that a "cottage" manufacturer may be the only way to go to get the lighter materials, etc. However, if Roger is negotiating with the larger outfit works out, that's fine! I may not ever get one, but would love to have the option if the tents I'm trying don't survive the Wind Rivers!

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