Páramo Vista Rain Jacket Review

[Nigel Healy]

Miquel you're a little shorter than me plus (this from memory so I might be wrong) the Quito is shorter than the VAL and the Vista. The point on length is the Quito is *NO* cycling cut, its more a walking length for when paired with waterproof trews. So long as everyone knows that then the length is not important. There's a video currently on Paramo's site about Quito for cycling, plus the cyclist is wearing cotton jeans….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=s51N_MAmvyQ

I'd have bought the Vista if it had pitzips and if even longer but pitzips are essential for venting in my book – I have pitzips in my waterproof Marmot Aegis I use in warmer rain.

I also own the Summit Hoodie + Fuera Ascent combo – also both with large pitzips but a much more heavy package.

Its rained 4 days nonstop here and I was wearing Quito outdoors all the time, biking with OMM Kamleika pants or walking with Paramo Velez pants. The really liberating aspect is the comfort, if its cool enough wear it, and don't worry.

Once the lighter fabrics came in, packabability became viable, I measure the weights and volumes of all my outdoors gear. Clearly down wins weight/volume but that's more campwear/cold/clear type situations whilst Paramo is more outdoors/cool/unpredictable type situations. The Quito is a little heavier and a little larger packed than an synthetic insulated water-resistant hooded jacket, i.e. its basically an insulating softshell with good waterproof features thrown if for little weight/volume penalty. Hence when packing for an outdoors trip, if its cool enough, with any possibility of damp, I take Paramo, it just does so much so well in a good weight story.

Once it stops raining here, I'll be doing the Nikwax thang….

[Tjaard Breeuwer]

The one good part about the fit or features of Nikwax Analogy clothing is that the seams don't have to be taped.

This means it's easy to do alterations like making it trimmer or adding pitzips.

[Nigel Healy]

Yes know that but it takes some skill, you can make it look bad and ruin any resale value. So… be sure of what you want and how to accomplish. I pondered it quite seriously for a while because I wanted to keep torso and sleeve length but remove sleeve+torso width.

It is somewhat unfair, not sure why it is thus, but larger sizes with more fabric are the same cost as smaller sizes (mediums of the world are subsidizing the larges of the world including paying their fuel to lug them off the runway, but I digress), and in fact many large sizes are more commonly in sales (how many times we see only XS and XL in sales?). However, you can take a Paramo item which is too-much in one dimension, a common one is the circumference of the torso, and unstitch, remove slices from panels and restitch. It's waterproofing is not affected. Part of why I didn't do that with the Quito was the position of the side-vents really needed fabric removed from both front+rear panels, plus the arms too wide so I counted 7 panels affected.

Cioch is probably the way to go, but a reason I did not is I'm still ignorant myself of what constitutes a good fit, I can only tell if something I'm wearing is of a need for more/less of something but not exactly how that would be accomplished, you're talking Saville Row made-to-measure skills. I guess in the modern era with computers it knows about shoulder rotations and other methods to not have flap but have enough room as you move your body. Clever Cioch?

[Nigel Healy]

FYI, I hand-wash all my outdoors clothing to max their life, including technical cleaning of waterproof gear, and I hang them on a hanger over the bath to drip-dry overnight then next day in sun / near a window to finish drying.

For baselayers, after an overnight dripping over bath they are usually still damp, usually where gravity was working which is sleeve-end and the torso end. Merino is usually still damp all-over even with the thinnest 150g and I can sometimes til squeeze water out of the ends.

We had 5 days continual rain last week and I wore my Paramo Quito every day, it didn't let me down, going indoors I shook it dry then either used body heat and wear it, or hung it over a chair in house, and it would dry quickly, wearing in about 20mins, over a chair in an hour-ish.

Yesterday in a break in the rain, I immerse the Quito in sink with some Nikwax Techwash and rinsed it til water clear, then hung it overnight. I left it sodden dripping wet, quite heavy.

This morning it was bone dry even though its two layers, plenty of places for damp still be hiding with no body heat or breeze against a wall over a bath to aid drying.

Goes to show the fabric is miraculous stuff, it dries quicker than a thin baselayer and its actually 2 layers.

Why does it dry so quick? My guess is it is the capillary action producing its own "breeze", the comparative wetness, the water is being pushed away and bringing in drier air, and this just keeps circulating.

When you wear one of this fabric type in rain for hours there is a bit of bubbling, a mild froth visible on the outer material as the water/vapor is pushing outwards.

[Tjaard Breeuwer]

Cioch is now removing the VAT for orders outside the EU. The listed prices are including VAT.

This at least helps cover the shipping for those of us in the US!

[Nigel Healy]

Plenty of UK online stores ship international. For higher-end kit it is often cheaper outside EU than inside.

With Paramo barely fitting anyone apart from an actor in the Hobbit, Cioch looks attractive. Most people find to get sleeves long enough you get a roomy tent over the torso.

[Stephen M]

Nigel,

I bought a Paramo Valez adventure Light Smock and Cascada trousers recently and found the fit perfect and I ain't no Hobbit :-)

[Nigel Healy]

Velez, I have to go large to get the arm length. In Quito I can stick to medium but then its very short front+back. I got a Cascada medium its baggy all over including long sleeves.

I'm saying give Cioch a good consideration, or if Paramo be very sure of your fit to order remotely.

This is my Paramo collection: Quito, Velez, Cascada, Summit Hoodie, Fuera Ascent, Fuera Peak, Fuera smock, Velez trews, Fuera trews, Explorer, Trekker Hoodie, various Cambia, Torre gilet, Torres sleeves, Torres trousers. Everything is medium.

[Stephen M]

You are better stocked than some shops Nigel ;-)

[Tjaard Breeuwer]

There are some new womens jackets at Paramo that look at lot more up to date style wise, and from the video and description it looks like the fit is a lot better too:

[Nigel Healy]

That video is of a jacket been out a while, I'm going to guess a year.

There are newer ones out including a newer longer jacket.

Now I'd say having owned both the "light" and the "normal" weight breathable material, the lighter one is LESS breathable, its less of a "wear all day" type as a result. I don't know why but my guess is the thinness requires a strength which requires a denser weave = smaller micro holes.

[Michael Gillenwater]

i will be in London in a couple weeks. And live in the Pacific NW. So, i will run by the Paramo shop and check it out. After reading the Wikipedia page and hearing the comments here about fit, I am pretty skeptical about this stuff, though. And it sounds like the staff at Paramo might not be much help. I would love a fellow engineer/scientist to give a technical critique of this technology. The Paramo website is full of meaningless mumbo jumbo.

EDIT: I just found this in an old article:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/paramo_clothing.html#.URx0c1dZOSo

[Nigel Healy]

It works as a waterproof, but the fit is the problem.

I'd say the fact it is only really sold in UK accurately matches the conditions it suits which is cool and wet, if you're from Pacific NW then its comparable and so good to consider.

As to how it works, its really just a capillary force from the weave of the inner material which tends to push water from the inside to the outside. To keep that working it needs to be clean which is what the Nikwax Techwash does. The capillary force can be defeated by pressure such as from tightness, which is why its baggy, from a heavy backpack with narrow straps but if you a true BPL that's not much of an issue and by wind. The wind is defeated by the outer layer which is a windproof layer. It can "wet out" which lowers its breathability so it is treated by Nikwax TXDirect to encourage run-off.

Overall, because its two layers it is warmer, the inner layer has no / negligible windproofing so its extremely breathable, the outer layer is very breathable. The two combined is more breathable by an order of magnitude than any shell, so its good for wear-all-day-with-chance-of-rain or rain-all-day situations, if its cold enough just wear it and forget. As the waterproofness is based of fabric construction and cleanliness, it will not lose its waterproofness with slight damage or age, so they outlast other waterproofs by decades. Plenty of folks have perfectly ok working gear from 20+ years back.

The biggest drawback is its 2-layer insulation, it needs to be cold enough in balance with your output and high-energy people will find it too warm til below freezing which is obviously then not encounter water, so its more of a bimbling or just-above-freezing type context which is a very common temperature in UK.

I have Cascada for walking low-speed winter coat (e.g. into town) I got used, I got Quito for more biking and faster hiking, and a Summit hoodie + Fuera Ascent for more hiking from a car type as its just more flexible. I tend to use the Quito the most.

The traditional biggest complaint, after too-warm, is its bagginess, but the fabric needs bagginess to maximise waterproofness and you can make use of it like baggy sleeves to roll them up easier. Next the sleeves often too short, a little dumb if you're in mountains and raising hands above head, but its vast breathability and insulation means it will self-forgiving rain getting in the sleeve, you'll just evaporate and breathe it out.

You'll not get a discount at their London store and I'm not sure if they'll sell to you minus the 20% UK Salestax, more typically you get home and get the garments posted to you with a discount from somewhere else. Or you can just pay full price and walk out with it.

The pants are great, the Cascada pants, again just wear when its cold and regardless of rain you're dry and warm.

The overlayer Torres are performance-wise normal stuff but its good value for the build quality, I wear the Torres gilet a lot to boost anything I'm wearing.

Avoid their baselayers, worse of any make I've tried. Cambia is horrid.

Their fleecy reversibles are comfortable next-to-skin type if you like the look of them they're ok. I like the Explorer, I got a broken shoulder recent and an older damaged shoulder and I'm using the chest pocket to act as a sling.

Most people who buy Paramo find the comfort and convenience good and buy more and more, it has a name "Paramoholics" and its fans are widely known to be evangelical fans and so the P***** use to not provoke it being mentioned.

Be absolutely sure on fit before you buy! Notorious for sleeve length and torso length too-short

[Michael Gillenwater]

Nigel,

Many thanks for the thorough (and speedy) advice. Given the fit issues, its is probably worth passing on a chance at a discount to be able to try a range of models and sizes before even thinking about buying anything. More importantly, I am just fascinated to take a close look at this stuff and see if it makes sense to my engineering brain. I get the theory, but there is nothing like seeing it in person.

[Nigel Healy]

The London Paramo store has a tiny front entrance you have to be stood very close to see it. I was last in there 2 years ago, having queued for hours in USA embassy to hand $ over so I can stay in U.S.of.A. Land of the free for a fee!

I'd suggest if fit works get 2 jackets, one for high-energy one for low energy. You'll spend probably $600 equiv but be good for decades.

Forgot to add, Paramo is good for dunking situations, people falling rivers, its warmth, pump liner and breatability people been dry in not too long after a soaking. That is where my 1st Paramo spend came from I'd been biking against rain for an hour, I was soaked and the soaking was just getting me the shivers, I popped into a passing store, having never heard of Paramo. Shop so sure it would be good said full refund if I didn't like, I then biked for another hour in heavy wind and I was bone dry. The garment had not only kept rain out, had dried a cotton t-shirt under. Magical.

Paramoholic!

[Tjaard Breeuwer]

Paramo just released details about their new Enduro/Ventura jackets and pants. These have a slim, athletic fit and stretch panels. Quite heavy though.

[Tjaard Breeuwer]

Perhaps of more interest to BPL, they are making a line where the liner and the windshell are separate, the Bora windproofs and fleece.

http://paramo.co.uk/en-gb/garments/detail/index.php?pgc=NIKWAXFLEECEHOODIEBORAMENS

Being able to use a windshirt as rain shell ends the debate about whether to bring rain- or wind-shells or both.

It should also allow BPLers to replace the fairly heavy (6.9oz) Paramo windproof with a lighter one, say Montbell Tachyon, or Pata Houdini.

This certainly doesn't put Paramo in to SUL territory, but it might make the weight gain small enough to make it a worthwhile trade-off for the extra performance.

For example, a cool weather trip rainy, windy weather;

MB UL Thermawrap jacket 8.4 oz
Marmot Essence rainjacket 6.4oz
total 14.8oz.
This system is warmer, and after a day of rain the insulation will be dryer in camp, but probably dry less quickly in case of continued humidity during the evening.

MB Tachyon windshirt 2.3oz
Paramo Bora Hoody 14.3 oz
total 16.6 oz.
This offers the ability to wear just a wind-shell in mild but breezy weather as well as being far more breathable when in waterproof mode. It also offers mid level insulation for walking in cold weather, when the Thermawrap would be to sweaty under a rain jacket while hiking.

[Nigel Healy]

The separation of an insulating layer from a windproof layer which combine to be waterproof has been possible with Paramo for quite some years. There was the Taiga Fleece, then the Summit Hoodie. I have the Summit Hoodie.

The problem is that rain may be at a temperature and your output such you want to keep rain off but with less insulation than a Paramo full waterproof. So what do you do? You either use a shell (not Paramo) and then add a mid (traditional) or overlayer (e.g. Primaloft) for colder rain. Or you simply let yourself get wet under a windproof and then later put the insulating liner from Paramo and then let your bodyheat then dry yourself out. Under heavy rain any windproof is instantly punctured and you're soaked and then wicks down into your underwear and then stays wet largely for hours.

I'm in UK right now and its been a cooler than average September its 11C/52F where I am and its been raining most days for last days, and I have a Paramo Quito which is the least-insulating waterproof you can get from Paramo, and issue was on uphills it was too warm, on flats/downhill it was about-right. Yesterday I walked for 4 hours in rain and the Quito was about-right most of the time (wish I wore gloves!) but walking into the rain my belly got wet (failed zip? Sweat condensing facing the rainy side?) which when I turned around belly then dried out, and I got wet back under the pack.

In colder temperatures there is much less of a problem, Paramo is then much less of "too warm".

There dual-layer Paramo options are heavy for what they are, if it is warm+dry and you're packing both.

What I do is use a shell (mine is a Marmot Mica) til the season gets more into truly cold then its Paramo time.

Your weights comparisons probably not fair as my Summit Hoodie isn't really that warm, a true fleece is more insulating for less weight.

[Anonymous]

I have a Cioch made pump liner which i combine with a Patagonia Houdini. Haven't done much testing with it yet since I received the pump liner in the mid spring and i live in VA, US. But when it starts to cool down again, i very much plan to test it extensively. First around home, then out in the woods.

Anyways, the pump liner weighs 8.4 oz, i believe, and the Houdini is a little over 4 oz. So for about 12.5 oz, i have a system that can be used most of the year even here (though it would be much better in MA where i've lived the majority of my life). My Stoic Vaporshell weighs more than that.

I expect it to be at least a bit cooler than than a lot of the Paramo jackets, except that it lacks pit zips.

I'm wondering what would be the best baselayer to combine with it, especially when it's not particularly cool out? Probably something as cool as possible. Maybe simply nylon fishnet type fabric? I've heard that it's best to use some kind of baselayer underneath. Would nylon mesh/fishnet be sufficient to avoid whatever it is that one should avoid?

[Nigel Healy]

So the question was on baselayer.

In my experience the pump liner does not actually pump from the inside out, if placed on a wet surface it does not soak it up. No, what seems to happen is liquid water is prevented from getting from the outside face of the pump liner to the inside. So it relies on body heat to evaporate sweat on the inside, it passes through the pump liner where it either keeps going or if it condenses then it is prevented from coming back inside.

So the baselayer should really just encourage evaporation and hog the least amount of water. I've tried many types. Cotton is the worst. Wool wants to hold water. I used the synthetic wicking baselayers. In September temps a short-sleeve type. Example is the Paramo own base – Cambia, or I got some of those Berghaus silver-ion type.

You'll find that the bubble of humid air inside the jacket will still condense facing the coldest side, e.g. in wind-pushed rain there will be a side coldest with the chilling rain and it being pressed against, so all of the evaporated sweat will tend to want to condense that side.

So your base WILL get wet.

Overall the main benefit is the massive breathability, you can literally hold the base up and blow through it very easily, so the humid bubble is trapped the least. All the problems I mention of sweat condensing happens in a shell too but the breathability is less so it builds and often stays long after rain gone whilst you can be bone dry in Paramo an hour or so after rain stops.

For Paramo to work, it is important you don't chill, as then the sweat hasn't got the oomph to evaporate, also you don't want to be too warm to make you sweat. Hence why I like the Quito as its got long pitzips and full front zip. Also why Paramo tends to be baggier so air is moving all around the inside as much as possible so humidity is evened-out inside.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like i should use an X-Large with it then…

Thanks for the info Nigel, but i'm still curious specifically about nylon fishnet. Have you tried that yourself? Falls under some of your recommendations of doesn't hold water, etc. One problem i could see with nylon fishnet is that it won't "filter" your sweat all like a thicker or more absorbing fabric would, so i suppose the pump liner would get dirtier faster and the DWR coating degrade faster?

[Nigel Healy]

I don't know what is nylon fishnet.

Basically maximum wicking and holds the least amount of water to get maximum evaporation.

As for needing XL… the traditional Paramo sizes are on the larger size. I got medium Quito, Summit Hoodie, Fuera (Peak, Ascent, Smock), Cascada and they aren't particularly tight and I got currently 45.5" chest.

Don't worry about dirt with Paramo you just wash it regular in Nikwax Techwash an irregularly in Nikwax TXDirect.

[Anonymous]

Hi Nigel,

Its large gauge, spacey nylon, merino, or polypropylene mesh–sort of like a top equivalent of women's nylon stockings. Its been recommended on here multiple times because it doesn't retain any moisture, can be lightish weight, doesn't smell because the spaces between fibers are too open so gunk can't accumulate. Yet if still adds a little warmth by putting a little air space between your skin and the next thermal layer. Sounds like it might be very good to try with a Paramo type system, except it might degrade the DWR coating on the pump liner faster.

[Nigel Healy]

I doubt your decision on baselayer has any significant effect on DWR.

Just wash Paramo reasonably regularly as usual.

"DWR" isn't really the case with Paramo, just needs to be clean, there is no long-term damage possible.

The separation of pump liner via the two-garment does present the external face of the liner with more opportunity to get dirtier than if is a traditional single garment, I know I have to wash my Summit Hoodie more often.

Also to add, the fleecy side is outwards, that's how the lump liner works so it doesn't feel significantly insulating, certainly not as much as weight implies. My Quito and my Summit Hoodie are about the same weight but the SH needs a windproof over to become waterproof and I think the SH+windproof is only marginally warmer than the Quito.

Last February I was in D.C. and the temps were a few degs either side of freezing so I took the SH and a windproof and it was not warm enough just above freezing, I had to keep moving hard to be warm enough, which was a little challenging as I was turning tourist and stopping to take pics. A lifesaver was a down vest I had packed.

As you need the two layers of fabric with Paramo to make a waterproof, it lowers the temperature range it is about-right, so I'd give serious consideration to just picking the right jacket for your type of use and then boost it for low-activity with a traditional fleece and/or a Primaloft overlayer. Paramo do their own overlayer – Torres, I like the gilet.

Possibly if car-camping, and day-hiking from base a 2-layer system might be more flexible but if you're carrying it for many days then it doesn't seem to win any arguments in my mind.

FYI I pack Quito and a windproof, the windproof for cool+active and light rain, the Quito for colder / rain, and the windproof over the Quito for colder and driving rain as the Quito's zips are not waterproof.

[Anonymous]

You're probably right Nigel. My reasoning was that the oils, salts, and acids from your skin and sweat would more directly interact with the pump liner. Not being a chemist, i have no idea how these would react with a Nikwax type coating but i'm sure it wouldn't be good for it. It just might be you would have to clean it more often or more thoroughly.

P.s. my earlier description of fishnet was a bit off. Neither fine nor light was really a description i should have used. Here is a BPL article on it.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/fishnet_base_layers.html#.UjuxhlWzKpg

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