100% Propane For Backpacking

[Hikin’ Jim]

I doubt the bottle and or seal for the valve would handle the pressure.

I've seen some white gas type stoves rigged up to run off of butane stored in an MSR fuel bottle. That rig used a Schraeder type valve. I'd be really hesitant to try that with propane though.

An HPA tank for paintball might work but even the carbon fiber ones have an aluminum inner and are over 2 lbs.

You're thinking in the right area. I'm looking for existing things that can be used. Paintball tanks are a good thought, although maybe a bit heavy. I've been combing the hardware stores. Keep the thoughts coming…

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

What about a steel/ti Refillable but very narrow (as narrow as usual valve) tube container? Could be carryed in backpack frame. Narrow = takes high pressure.

Narrow is fine if you can rig it up to be side laying. Now, we just need to find such an animal.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

What is holding it back is the research and design time. Paintball tanks were made for something else and simply used by "us" paintball folks.

You've struck the proverbial nail on the head. Probably no one is going to do the R&D to create an ultralight gas canister, particularly now that the demonstrably superior Coleman Powermax canisters have failed. What is needed is to find something produced for some other reason that can be adapted for use for backpacking. I keep hoping someone in a lab somewhere will chime in saying, "hey don't you know about the 500g aluminum propane tanks used for bunsen burners?" or something. No such luck thus far.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[James Marco]

I think I mentioned it but probably on a different thread.
A mail gin (Passlode or the like) uses a smaller fuel cylinder. I never bothered to find out what was in it, though.
Usually these are readily available at home depot or the like…

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hi, James,

Most of the nail guns I've seen have been pneumatic (compressed air). I've not seen one with any type of cylinder. Maybe I'll check into it though next time I'm in a Home Depot.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[David Thomas]

>"Now, taking the same overwrap technology a very light tank could be produced. What is holding it back is the research and design time. Paintball tanks were made for something else and simply used by "us" paintball folks."

Small cylinders' wall thickness isn't determined by burst strength, but by needing to be a minimum thickness to resist punctures and dents. So anything too small requires excess metal in addition to its requirements as a pressure vessel.

>"I wonder how a very thin titanium tank with an aluminum outer would work…"

Or maybe a metal lining with a carbon-fiber overwrap? This would emerge as lower weight in larger diameters.

[David Thomas]

>"Could be carryed in backpack frame. Narrow = takes high pressure."

Think multipurposing! Pressure tank AS backpack frame!

It's been done in aviation, sort of.

There is a helicopter that has a welded tubular frame. To provide a continuous check for structural damage, they pressurize the frame with air. If the pressure falls, you need to check every weld and tube for damage (perhaps by pressurizing with helium and use a helium-triggered leak-detection rig).

But why not, for an aircraft, use the tubular frame as your O2 tank?

And for BPing, pressurize your BP frame with propane. You've got the metal frame anyway. Provide the right adapter and you could stop by any hardware store, get a green Coleman 16.4-ounce propane canister, invert it onto the valve on the frame and fill your frame. Toss the empty canister in the trash. Then you carry ONLY fuel, no extra container.

I'll go measure one of my frame packs and get back to you with a volume.

[Jeff Hollis]

"Or maybe a metal lining with a carbon-fiber overwrap? This would emerge as lower weight in larger diameters."

This is exactly how carbon fiber paintball tanks are made and the lining is aluminum but could also be titanium. Everything would be thinner than paintball tanks due to much lower PSI. Maybe you could get a paintball tank maker to do build it. However, dealing with regulations regarding handling, storing, and transporting flammable gasses could make it prohibitive.

[Michael Ray]

Jim,
Here's what a Paslode cell looks like. It doesn't specify what is in it other than liquified gas. I imagine you could find a MSDS for it. PN 900420. There's a similar sized one of a different color, too. Not sure if you have an adapter that would work with the valve, which operates like a normal spray can. BTW, weight is 91 grams (full or pretty close to it – don't think I've used it).

[Hikin’ Jim]

Thank you, Michael,

Now that looks promising. Looks like it's an aluminum canister.

I looked up the MSDS for a Paslode Fuel Cell. Looks like it's a mix of 1-butene (butylene) and propene (propylene). The percentages are all over the map. I guess they're basically say "we'll put whatever mix we darn well please in there."

Some facts (from Wikipedia)
propene (propylene), C3H6, boiling point -54F/-48C
1-butene (butylene), C4H8, boiling point 21F/-6C

If it's mostly propylene, then it might be a good winter fuel. If it's mostly butylene, then it's a good summer fuel. Crap shoot I guess.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[James Marco]

Well, like I say, I never dug around enough to know. And, it probably doesn't matter to a gun. But, I have used these in -10F temps OK. Though, the oil starts getting a bit sticky.

[Hikin’ Jim]

I think I might have an adapter that would run one of these. Maybe. I'm definitely going to check this out next time I'm at Home Depot or the like.

Thanks,

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

And for BPing, pressurize your BP frame with propane. You've got the metal frame anyway. Provide the right adapter and you could stop by any hardware store, get a green Coleman 16.4-ounce propane canister, invert it onto the valve on the frame and fill your frame. Toss the empty canister in the trash. Then you carry ONLY fuel, no extra container.

Now that would be pretty cool. Of course you'd have a real problem on your hands if you set your pack down hard. Yipes.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

The really sad thing about this discussion is that there's already a canister that would be a pretty darned good "fit," but it's discontinued.

A 8oz/226g PowerCell next to a standard sized propane canister.

A 8oz/220g Snow Peak standard threaded backpacking type gas canister next to a 8oz/226g PowerCell.

There are some other formats like the 14.1oz/400g canister and the 5.25oz/154.5g canister, but they're not all that great on fuel to weight ratios.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Brian Austin]

Use Propane.

Difference Propane canisters can be easily refilled by the common joe. Requires a fuel pump. Go to a wrecking yard and grab one out of a junker car. Some adapters and fittings later and viola pump away from one big liquid tank to said small tank. Its how I refill our welding propane tanks from our large propane tank for the house.

To make it easy on yourself, put tank on a scale so you know how much is in it.

I'll admit I still use white gas. Don't know why I haven't gone to propane long before now.

Use Gloves when disconnecting handling propane pump equipment. You can give yourself frostbite fairly easily if you let liquid propane wash over your bare hand. Said evaporation rate will chill you BIIIIIGGGGG time VERY fast.

Oh yea, don't smoke while doing it either otherwise its no worse than filling up your car or open gasoline fumes from spilled gas from your lawnmower. Use same common sense principles.

[Roger Caffin]

> now that the demonstrably superior Coleman Powermax canisters have failed.
I have to disagree here. The Coleman Extreme series of stoves 'failed' commercially: the sales volume was not high enough for the business wonks. THAT was the sad bit. Coleman did keep supplying the canisters for another year or two, but bowed out due to economics again.

However, please note what they were really using: essentially hair spray canisters. Guys, get creative here. Those canisters ARE still available.

Also, check out Sievert. Look at http://www.sievert.se/default.asp?locId=1&langId=1&pageId=6&areaTypeId=2&areaId=22. Skip the first canister – that's butane. But look at the ones down the column!!! (I am trying to find these in Australia, but no joy yet.)

Cheers

[James Marco]

Roger,
Here in the USofA where highly monitored people, closely guarded secrets, big money, and FBIecret Policie peoples are always watching, not to mention going through a stop sign when no one else is on the road, citizens are "protected" from themselves and the consequences of their actions to others. So living in such an autocratic setting such things that could create a hand thrown fire weepon by lighting 2 paoks of matches, after wrapping it in paper with some iron grindings and then punching it with a nail are proscribed as wepons of massive, or was that instant, destruction. Citizens do not have the luxury of freedome of choice, nor weponry, and those highly usefull fuel containers are simply not available here. They do not say why, of course. Soon, we will not be able to get butane canisters, either, but that doesn't quite get hot enough.

Jim is finding this out the hard way, I think…they don't like to even ship them from Canada, what with the border gender arms. and closeted border policies.

Enough…I just get upset every time I see ANY form of censorship, and actions, "to protect me" from myself.

[Stuart R]

And yet firearms are readily available. In a society where most politicians are avowed Christians.

Such contradictions are perplexing to non-US citizens.

[Jerry Adams]

I looked at Roger's propane links

Towards the bottom is propane – 640 g total, 380 g propane (22.6 oz/13.4 oz)

Compare to Gigapower Isobutane – 362 g total, 220 g isobutane (12.8 oz/7.8 oz)

propane is 59% propane, 41% canister. isobutane is 61% isobutane, 39% canister. propane is only a little less efficient. Of course, since the propane is larger container has a larger ratio of volume to surface area you get a better efficiency, would be worse if it was the same size.

The size of the propane is a little less convenient. The 220 g (7.8 oz) Gigapower is enough for 7 or 8 days for me, which is as long as I ever go. The propane would be enough for maybe 13 or 14 days but I don't need that extra capacity, so I would end up carrying 640 g (22.6 oz) propane vs 362 g (12.8 oz) isobutane.

Sure, the propane works better below freezing, but with a few tricks I can get the isobutane to work down to 20 F which is as cold as I ever go so that isn't really that useful.

Propane not that useful for me, but if you went to colder temps and didn't care about the extra weight then it might be good.

[Hikin’ Jim]

> now that the demonstrably superior Coleman Powermax canisters have failed.
I have to disagree here. The Coleman Extreme series of stoves 'failed' commercially: the sales volume was not high enough for the business wonks. THAT was the sad bit. Coleman did keep supplying the canisters for another year or two, but bowed out due to economics again.

Which is hardly encouraging to anyone thinking about producing an improved canister.

However, please note what they were really using: essentially hair spray canisters. Guys, get creative here. Those canisters ARE still available.

Hmm. Now that's an interesting thought. The hair spray type canisters use male Lindal valves. There are adapters (I have one in hand) for butane cans with similar valves. But how to fill them with propane? I suppose if one can take gas out then one can put gas in.

Also, check out Sievert. Look at http://www.sievert.se/default.asp?locId=1&langId=1&pageId=6&areaTypeId=2&areaId=22. Skip the first canister – that's butane. But look at the ones down the column!!! (I am trying to find these in Australia, but no joy yet.)

Nice stuff! The country codes on the Sievert website don't appear to list the US or Australia, but aluminum 100% propane canisters would be a real find.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[USA Duane Hall]

HJ, thanks for spending more of my money. Per Ron's link on CCS, I got the BIN adapter, so I'm set for what I don't know, but I'm set anyway. Nice discussion here. I have a bunch of Power Max canisters now, pricey, but they can be had. Since I'll be hoarding them, they may not be used up for 20 years, I better get more so I don't run out. :)
Duane

[Larry De La Briandais]

"So anything too small requires excess metal in addition to its requirements as a pressure vessel."

>"I wonder how a very thin titanium tank with an aluminum outer would work…"

"Or maybe a metal lining with a carbon-fiber overwrap? This would emerge as lower weight in larger diameters."

Yes, the problem is rough handling the tank will see. The pressure isn't that high. I was thinking aluminum as an "over wrap" as the carbon fiber needs an epoxy that adds weight. Also, from my experience aluminum handles getting knocked around better than the epoxy used in the carbon wrapped (and the fiberglass wrapped) tanks.

But Jim it right, someone is going to have to find something that already exists and use it…

[Hikin’ Jim]

HJ, thanks for spending more of my money.

Always trying to help out, Duane. :)

Per Ron's link on CCS, I got the BIN adapter, so I'm set for what I don't know, but I'm set anyway. Nice discussion here.

Nice snag. They're already gone now. Hopefully he'll see sales are good and post more.

Nice discussion here.

Yes! And lots of ideas that I hadn't thought of. Hence my reason for posting here.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

For those who may be interested, the seller who has been offering propane adapters on eBay is Chovin. Here is a link to Chovin's eBay Store.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

Seen in an Australian store recently:

350g, 70/30 butane/propane. Not quite the holy grail, but oddball canisters are out there.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

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