100% Propane For Backpacking

[Hikin’ Jim]

Yes, you read that correctly, 100% propane for backpacking.

The ideal set up is the 226g/8oz 100% propane Bernzomatic PowerCell — if you can find them. They're out there, but they're tough to find.

Absent a PowerCell, you can use an adapter like the Kovea LPG (propane) adapter with common 16.4oz/465g propane cylinders, the kind everyone uses for car camping.

What are the considerations involved with the use of such an adapter and 100% propane for backpacking stoves? I address these and other practical matters of propane for backpacking in my latest blog post: 100% Propane For Backpacking.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

I have not tried MAPP gas, but:

Would MAPP gas work with an adapter as shown above, how safe would it be, and would MAPP gas be good for extreme cold (below -30F/-35C)?

Some thoughts:
According to Bernzomatic.com, the flame temperature in air for MAPP is higher than either butane or propane, but not inordinately so:
Flame Temperature in Air (ºF)
Butane 3,200
Propane 3,450
MAPP 3,600
A difference of 150ºF when dealing with temps above 3,000ºF isn't particularly significant.

How about the vapor pressure? From Bernzomatic.com (I assume this is psi):
Vapor Pressure @70ºF
Butane 30
Propane 125
MAPP 140
Notice the huge step up from butane to propane. There is no similar jump from propane to MAP (95 psi increase vs. 15 psi increase).

Just looking at the flame temps and the psi (an admittedly limited look), nothing screams at me "don't do this." However, I'd still be very cautious. Read the warnings on my blog. If flame "lift off" is a potential problem with propane, then it will be even more so with MAPP. One must also consider the strength of all valves, connections, etc. Can everything on your set up run at higher pressure? I can't answer that question, so anyone using MAPP is doing so at their own risk.

Now, would there be any advantage to using MAPP? Probably not for most applications, but notice the higher vapor pressure. Higher vapor pressure to me indicates that MAPP probably has a lower boiling point and therefore might be better for extreme cold (temps below -30F/-35C). I looked it up. According to Bernzomatic.com, the boiling point of MAPP gas is -54F/-48C. The boiling point for propane is -44F/-42C. There might indeed be an advantage to using MAPP gas in extreme cold. Interesting.

If, in an emergency, MAPP gas were the only thing I could find, would I try it? Yes. And I'd turn things down really low first. I'd also use something like the Brunton Stove Stand seen in my blog post so that the flame is separated from the fuel. The stove stand has two valves which allows me to step down the pressure further. There is no law that says you have to open a valve fully — so don't. Open the valve at the canister say 75%, and then open the valve at the burner say 35%. That's plenty of pressure for a backpacking stove and is very close to what 100% would be like if one were using a backpacking type canister.

Adapters open up whole new worlds in terms of fuel and stove combinations that can be used. Adapters can also open up a whole new world of hurt if you exceed the limitations of a particular set up. Just because you can hook up something up doesn't mean it's a good idea. Above all else, be careful.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Keith Bassett]

Have you found other adapters on the market for this? I mentioned this adapter to my buddies, and one of them said that he found and bought one from Sweden a couple of years ago that also does this. It was like $7 rather than the $25. He found it at a hunting store.

I am inclined to trust Kovea since they OEM for MSR and some others, but the price hurts a little. :)

[Jim W.]

I'm with you. As a teenager I spent many winter weekends in the Sierra backcountry. We went from SVEA 123 to MSR XGK but still huddled outside to cook and boil. Then we switched to a propane "Grasshopper" stove and retired to the tent for all cooking. Never a flare up nor cold related problem. It was heavy but reasonable for short trips.

After trying out upright canisters in cold the past couple years I've been thinking that my future is mostly just a couple two night trips per winter. I can't justify an expensive winter stove but would sure love the performance of propane. Your article on the Powercell cans got me all excited- I bought a Brunton Stove Stand (not yet received) and have tried 4 hardware stores looking for the Powercell canisters. No dice.

I did find 8 oz propane canisters near the torches which appear like a half-height version of the squat 1 pound models. They should be pretty stable as a stove base. Now to find an adapter so I can use them with a lightweight backpack stove instead of a heavy car camp stove.

EDIT: I misspoke. These cans are 5.25 oz MAPP gas.

Note that Coleman propane stoves have a very compact pressure reducer or regulator in the fitting that screws onto the can. Maybe an adapter that starts with this would be a good way to go. It's Coleman part R430B565T REGULATOR ASSY $17.99

[Hikin’ Jim]

Keith,

$25 is the cheapest I've seen. I've seen others that were far more expensive.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hi, Jim,

Very interesting. I've seen 8oz squat MAPP gas canisters but not propane ones. What brand were they?

The Kovea adapter I bought does have a set screw in it so that you can step down the pressure. I left it at the factory setting. I experienced no high pressure related problems, but I started low and turned things up slowly. I never opened the valve fully.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Jim W.]

I was wrong. It was the 5.25 oz "propylene" Bernzomatic Quickfire. I guess that's the same as MAPP?. Although billed as a "1/4 turn" connection, it is compatible with the standard propane connectors.

From looking at the threads it looks like a standard propane thread but with two sides cut off flat.

Per Bernzomatic's Quickfire FAQ:
"9) Will the QUICK CONNECT Cylinder work with other torches?
Yes, the new QUICK CONNECT Cylinder works with all PROPYLENE & MAPP GAS hand torches on the market that have a CGA600 thread connection."

One web site lists gross weight at 16 oz which would put the empty can about 11 oz.

[David Thomas]

Summary: Don't bother with MAPP.

I looked up info on MAPP. MAPP used to be a combination of methylacetylene (C3H4), propadiene (C3H4) and propane (C3H8). But no plants produce it anymore in the USA. Since 2008, "MAPP" has been liquefied petroleum gas (LPG, mostly propane) with high levels of propylene (C3H6).

All those compounds other than propane are "unsaturated hydrocarbons". They lack all the hydrogens that propane has. While they burn at a higher temperature and that's very important in welding (MAPP is an safer alterative to acetylene because acetylene is unstable under pressure unless dissolved in acetone), all those gases have less heat value PER WEIGHT than propane.

If you want to burn something to burn in our oxygen atomsphere, you can't get any lighter than hydrogen. So the higher the ratio of H to C, the more weight efficient a fuel will be, assuming its vapor pressure allows you to transport in a reasonable container.

MAPP, if anything, needs a thicker container than propane AND it has a lower heat content per weight. So I see nothing to recommend it for BPing, unless, as HikinJim said, it was the last thing the hardware store at the trailhead had in stock.

JimW reports, "One web site lists gross weight at 16 oz which would put the empty can about 11 oz." – that's a worse ratio than 100% propane in a 16.4 ounce (net) Coleman green canister in which a pound of steel holds a pound of propane.

Editted to add: And MAPP is MUCH worse than these nifty 100% propane cylinders HikinJim tells us about but that we can actually find in the store. Sigh.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Thank you for weighing in, David. Much appreciated.

Other than as a last resort, there is one thing that MAPP might be useful for: Extreme cold.

According to Bernzomatic.com, the boiling point of MAPP gas is -54F/-48C. The boiling point for propane is -44F/-42C. If one were dealing with temperatures below -30F/-35C, then perhaps MAPP gas might offer an advantage.

That and the fact that MAPP gas is sold in 5.25oz/149g containers.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Keith Bassett]

I agree that the canister size alone might be worth looking at MAPP gas. What is the price difference?

As a proud scotch american, that is often the deciding factor. Paying more, for less heat value per oz. Ouch.

:)

[Jim W.]

I only suggest the squat can because of the stability and lower total weight for a trip where 5 oz is enough fuel.

According to Bernzomatic, the three fuels are pretty similar in BTU/LB. Total Heating Value After Vaporization (BTU/lb)Butane 21,500, Propane 21,800, Max Power Propylene 21,100.

From http://www.bernzomatic.com/resources/gas-types.aspx

Pricewise the little Propylene cans are $7.50 compared to around $3 for 3x as much propane. Not a good value.

Also there's an easier/simpler way to stabilize the 1 lb propane bottles than using the Brunton stand. Single burner stoves and many lanterns that are designed to use the 1 lb bottles come with a plastic base for stability.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Keith,

MAPP in the 5.25oz/149g canister is $7.47 ($0.050/gram) at Home Depot. Conventional backpacking gas in a standard threaded 8oz/110g canister is $5.00 ($0.045/gram). MAPP is definitely more expensive.

The only reason to use MAPP is its cold weather capability. I mean the stuff vaporizes all the way to freaking -54F/-48C!!!

Not only is MAPP sold in the little Quick Connect canisters and the big propane sized canisters but also in the thinner 14.1oz/400g canisters.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Keith Bassett]

Good call on the plastic base, I have one that came with our coleman camping lantern. I wonder how much it weighs?

I think Mapp is right out, at that price. I will have to go check the local hardware store for the smaller propane canisters for torches.

Thx for the breakdown.

[Keith Bassett]

My only regret is that I will be up at Paradise/Mazama Ridge this weekend, and should have found this thread two weeks ago. :)

The holy grail of snow / winter / mountain excursions, within reach. Nice work HJ!

[Hikin’ Jim]

You're welcome. I'm always trying. When people tell me about a limitation with their stoves, I look for solutions. I've been thinking about some of this stuff for months. I'm a nut of course, but it's a good nuttiness if you want to know about stoves. :)

Propane is plenty cheap, and most of us aren't going to be out in weather below -30F/-35C. The only advantage to MAPP is in extreme cold.

The 400g sized propane canisters used for propane torches might be lighter per gram of fuel than the standard 465g propane canisters for camping. Reason? They're thinner in diameter. They don't need as much steel to contain the vapor pressure.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Jim W.]

Looks like the Kovea "LPG Adapter" is part number VA-AD-0701. None currently on Ebay. It would be nice if we could do a group buy and get several for less than $25 each.

[Hikin’ Jim]

I wonder if people realize what these are. "LPG" adapter may not make clear what these are.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

I don't see any right now on eBay either. I do see the LPG adapter on the Kovea website. I believe that the sellers on eBay are just enterprising Korean individuals who are taking the initiative to sell these one by one.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Stuart R]

Ahahh – the adapter has some kind of regulator valve built into it. Sweet. That I think is the reason this setup works so well without flareups. The majority of the pressure drop will occur at the valve in te adapter and so this is where the vapourisation will also occur. With a the thermal mass of a big heavy steel bottle attached, freezing should not be a major issue (-40 excepted of course)

[Jeff Hollis]

We need a titanium refillable propane tank sized for backpacking. Probably just a pipe dream, but propane has always been the holy grail.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Ahahh – the adapter has some kind of regulator valve built into it. Sweet. That I think is the reason this setup works so well without flareups. The majority of the pressure drop will occur at the valve in te adapter and so this is where the vapourisation will also occur. With a the thermal mass of a big heavy steel bottle attached, freezing should not be a major issue (-40 excepted of course)

Yes, there's definitely a regulator.

I asked my brother (who speaks and reads some Korean) what the instructions say. The gist of it is that they recommend "for winter, move toward the '+'; for summer, move toward the '-')."

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

We need a titanium refillable propane tank sized for backpacking. Probably just a pipe dream, but propane has always been the holy grail.

I've got the Ti if you've got the valve. :)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Jeff Hollis]

I doubt the bottle and or seal for the valve would handle the pressure. An HPA tank for paintball might work but even the carbon fiber ones have an aluminum inner and are over 2 lbs.

[al b]

What about a steel/ti Refillable but very narrow (as narrow as usual valve) tube container? Could be carryed in backpack frame. Narrow = takes high pressure.

[Larry De La Briandais]

The structure of the paintball tanks is WAY overkill for propane. The working pressure of those tanks is either 3000 psi or 4500 psi. Way over propane.

Now, taking the same overwrap technology a very light tank could be produced. What is holding it back is the research and design time. Paintball tanks were made for something else and simply used by "us" paintball folks.

I wonder how a very thin titanium tank with an aluminum outer would work…

[Author]

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