The state of market of minimalist alpine footwear.

[Roger Caffin]

Some of you may have heard of Mt Cook in New Zealand. It's a bit steep and definitely rock and ice. Fairly serious stuff.
It has been climbed by someone wearing tennis shoes and strap-on crampons. But he cheated: he put plywood 'soles' between the tennis shoes and the crampons. That got him enough stiffness.

Cheers

[Bob Gross]

Didn't the crampon straps still press down on the top of the shoes?

It seems like the plywood underneath is only half of the battle.

–B.G.–

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

Light weight solution: full steel insole

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

>Didn't the crampon straps still press down on the top of the shoes?
I think straps on kahtoola crampons avoid this. I posted a link above to a review which has good pics of straps.

[Brian Austin]

Is that "steel insole" a joke? Its all of 0.020 inches thick. Its so thin it will cushion sharp points but will give next to nothing in regards to stiffness. It gives stability, not stiffness. There is a huge difference.

You need stiffness on ice. Rock obviously not.

Steel near your skin in cold environment is a VERY bad idea. Frostbite big time due to conduction heat transport.

If you want stiffness and something that is far lighter than your steel insoles you found not to mention won't freeze your feet and you won't lose toes due to frostbite. Grab a piece of plywood and cut what you need. If you don't like that then there are types of PLASTIC sign materials. Both of which will provide additional insulation between your feet and the snow/ice unlike the steel which are heat suction traps. Oh yea won't rust either and rust and say a cut on the bottom of your foot won't give you blood poisoning like steel will.

[Justin Baker]

I really want to see someone put rigid insoles into a a shoe with a 3mm sole and then use instep cramp ons. How well would that work??

[Justin Baker]

More specifically, that interests me for walking around in minimalist shoes in the early summer sierra's and climbing somewhat steep snowfields with the rigid insoles and good crampons.

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

>Its all of 0.020 inches thick. Its so thin it will cushion sharp points but will give next to nothing in regards to stiffness. It gives stability, not stiffness. There is a huge difference

I think I missed that. Thanks for letting us know.

Alternate is Carbon Graphite Shoe Plate- Flat<a>

[Kai Larson]

There are tons of alternatives to plastic boots these days. Hardly anyone wears plastic boots any more. The only viable plastic boot these days is the Scarpa Omega. It's much softer and lighter than the old school Koflachs or Scarpa Invernos.

Before you spend too much time trying to invent something better than old school plastic boots, you'd do well to try some of the lightweight footwear options that are already available.

A hybrid boot like the boots in the Scarpa Phantom line works well. Flexible, comfortable, close fitting and warm upper, mated to a rigid sole for crampon attachment.

For technical, steep routes where crampons are needed, these types of boots are great. (Ditto for the Sportiva Spantik for really cold conditions.)

The Scarpa Charmoz is a good example of a more traditional design that has been made lighter, more comfortable, and more sensitive.

For low angle, non-technical slogs, your soft mukluk idea would likely work fine, assuming you can come up with a viable method to keep the crampons attached without overly compressing the uppers.

[Nick Truax]

+1 to Kai and the comments re the Scarpa Phantom line.

These new boots are surprisingly lightweight for their performance and warmth. Highly recommended – I have a pair of 6000's that are a great boot. Kai's suggestion of the Spantiks are also a viable option when looking for something like the Phantoms, although the LS are heavier and chunkier IIRC.

[Derek Goffin]

I am just back from a long trip to the Andes where we were kitted out to
climb "walk up" peaks to 6800metres in their summer. We expected temperatures
down to -25 C and nothing technical but steep slopes I do not know the angle
but about the angle of scree repose with short steeper bits. We erxpected
the mountains to be mostly dry but needed to cope with new snow and old ice
if they occurred.
I too hate stiff footwear and one use of a hired plastic boot was enough.
I took one size oversized inov8 flyrocs and enough foot sized plastic bags
for the system: thin sock, plastic bag as vapour barrier, thick socks to
fill the shoe plastic bag for waterproofing, thin sock to hold the bag in
place. Then the shoe.
In fact the temperature never dropped below -10C. I never needed more than
the above. However I also took homemade over boots made of firm evazote foam " like sleeping mat" in a layer from 10 to 22mm thick reinforced with polyurethane coated nylon. The design allowed telescopic articulation at the ankle (ankle cuff only 6mm as it would be under insulated trousers)and above the ball of the foot. I did not need these as the weather was good but I have great confidence that they would have been fine down to -25 C. I did use one on the Cairngorm plateau for 2 days before as a trial. These overboots exposed the shoe sole for grip in dry non snow conditions and I had added an extra 6mm insole of a cork type insulation to guard against cold from below. If we had to use crampons we had steel Kahtoolahs and in those circumstances an under boot with evazote foam filling the shoe tread then another 6mm of the cork to transmit my weight with cut outs filled with evazote and finally 3mm neoprene wet suit and a thin grip layer allowed full foot surround in crampon conditions. and around camp The shoe, over boot and underboot together weighed less than 1 kilo per pair and I needed no other footwear. I can state catagorically that the structure was not noticeably compressed by the Katoola straps in use.
I do not know what your shoes are Huzefa but I could imagine you could build a similar system around your shoe and your feet could be as well insulated as double plastic boots for much less weight. Stiffness to get the best from the crampons is another matter. A carbon fibre footbed sounds a good idea to add stiffness as needed.
I have ideas on crampons that I have not been able to test, but here are my thoughts: For walking, crampons should articulate, like the foot, at the ball of the foot, not at the instep like all present bendy crampons. I imagine a fore plate and a foot ajustable back plate with an articulation axle at the ball of the foot with straps similar to kahtoolahs. These would be less effective for front pointing than even kahtoolahs, and we were close to the kahtoola limit on this last trip.
I can imagine a metal beam hinged at the instep with a front spike or spikes and locked into the crampon, perhaps in a U channel, with either the spike folded back out of the way up behind the heel or folded forward into front point position. It would then automatically lock the articulation and provide much better front pointing than any flexible crampon. The beam would be strong enough to do this without relying on stiff boots.
Perhaps alternatively the front points could be added to the CF footbed (it would be underneath the shoe sole) somehow? Without the footbed you would have wonderful walking crampons. With the foot bed you would have stiff solid crampons with effective front points. A flexible system that might cover more than we think.

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

Hi Derek, glad to see you back.

thin sock + plastic bag + thick socks + plastic bag + thin sock + shoes. Too complex, no? You should consider intuition liners. One shoes can replace 6 layers yet be warmer and waterproof. Mine are on the way. I will post specs and pics once I get.

Can you post a pic of your overboots?

Why cork? Aerogel insoles – toasty feet – are 4mm and probably the warmest available.

I would love to see some of your crampon ideas in action. Are you planning to make prototypes? Your idea about front point attached to footbed is not going to work kahtoola steel.

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

I received the intuition liners. The company actually sent me 3 pair at no cost. I am really sad to report that they dont fit well by themselves. (They may be good once heat molded and worn inside a plastic shell but I am not interested in that.) One pair (size 27) was too big, other 2 pairs were intuition dream liners and the water ski model. Unlike water ski, dream liners have laces but I still couldnt get a good heel lock. The problem is that upper (9mm foam) is very stiff and doest mold well around the feet. Or it could be that I need to try size 25. I will be returning them soon. If anyone wants a pic or have any question, let me know.

The only option remaining is feelmax kuuva.

Actually there is one more option: Intuition liner made from 4 mm foam. This one is used for the sole of dreamliners and is much more flexible then 9 mm foam. I have sent the company a request. Lets see if they decide to make one.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Derek

> For walking, crampons should articulate, like the foot, at the ball of the foot, not at
> the instep like all present bendy crampons.
A good idea, I agree, but then you might have to carry two sets of crampons? One set for walking and one set for climbing. As you siad, the walking design would not front-point.

On the other hand, that argument only applies if you want to front-point. If you are willing to climb French-style, the walking crampons might work adequately. Worth testing?

A very practical problem might be the economics of making, stocking and selling two different styles. The gung-hos (big percantage) would want nothing but the most macho front-points, while many of those who bought the probably cheaper walking crampons might be a PR nightmare for the vendor when the customers winge that they couldn't front-point in them and fell off and want to sue.

Cheers

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

Below are some further thoughts on minimalist footwear options.

Key pieces:
Fleece- RbH socks
Leather- feelmax kuuva (n/a – in production)
Foam- custom 4mm intuition boot (n/a – custom)
Neoprene- 40 below overboots
Wool- boiled wool socks aka dachstein (make myself)

1) Fleece is not windproof, feelmax is not insulated,  thus they cant be used alone. Together they would be a good combo. -VB, windproof, waterproof, insulated

2) intuition 4mm boot doesn't exist but the company likes the idea and may make one. Warmth is comparable to option 1) but lighter. –

3)boiled wool socks. Wind proof, very warm and likely better ground feeling then the other options. This is the only option which may work on ice without needing crampons. -windproof, water resistant, insulated.

4) RBH socks + overboots. VB, windproof, waterproof, insulated

I have read that wool has amazing grip. I plan to test this.

1)http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=391176
I don't climb in dachsteins anymore, but they were great on mixed
routes with a whole range of palming moves available if you dropped
your axes onto their leashes, as they semi froze to the rock/ice and
often enabled upwards progress when every other option had gone! I'm
sure these days other techniques would be used, but that's the point—
you make the most of what kit you're using and make it work for you.

2)http://www.climbing.com/news/justout/warm_when_wet_-
_dachstein_uber_mitts/
The mitts stuck like gecko paws to wet ice, permitting tool-free
moves.

3)http://www.bradleyalpinist.com/dachstein.html
From a safety aspect, wool’s texture offers significant friction on
snow or ice, aiding in self arrest situations. Besides being a natural
durable material, this added benefit of safety in the form of
friction, is completely unique to wool, and out performs from a
friction standpoint, even synthetics such as Scholler Cloth.

Also,
http://www.activeoutdoors.info/activeoutdoors/Article91.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/mar/09/improbable-research-icy-socks-over-shoes
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=28921

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Eric

> the OP has indicated the desire to go barefoot or close to such in alpine conditions
Yeah, well, I think I would go a shade further and say that was a really BAD idea!

Why? One major reason I would cite is temperature. Barefoot (or maybe tennis shoes or VFF) in cold conditions could, or would, lead to your feet getting way too cold. First you lose feeling contact with them, which is pretty dangerous, then you start getting pain. If there is snow or snow melt: bad scene very quickly!

A secondary problem is that when your feet are cold and you start losing sensation, you become very prone to foot injury. Enough said there.

Joggers with a good sole and the option for VB socks – sure, I'll go for that. Wet feet, or exposed skin – nope.

We gave up extreme rock climbing a long time ago. You either do it every weekend to keep the edge, or you give it up. We still use those skills when scrambling around cliff lines in our UL footwear on walking trips, but at a low level. Not the same thing.

Somehow, I don't think we differ much. It's all really just using one's brain.

Cheers

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

Check out the new Feelmax Kuuva 2 Boot.
http://feelmax.fi/en/shoes/kuuva-2/

Also see: http://www.toesalad.com/articles/feelmax-is-back

Made for me!

[folecr r]

@Huzefa Interesting thread but how do you plan to test your gear? Do you plan multiple climbs at 11500 feet in different weather conditions?

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