Inverted Canister Stoves

[DANIEL LIM]

During the winter I have used an alcohol stove to melt snow.It works, but takes awhile. I have been reading about the inverted canister stoves. Is there a safe and reliable inverted canister stove that cost less than $50. Over $50, I would look at a whisperlite. Or maybe, does someone have a used one for sale?

[Konrad .]

I use a primus spider as my inverted setup in the winter and it works well. They are cheaper than $50 on amazon

[USA Duane Hall]

Check out the MSR Rapidfire on Ebay. They seem to be coming up more often. In your price range too. I bought one from a stovie friend for under $30 and have used it twice now. The fuel line has to be straightened out when you use it, it gets a bend in it when stored in the storage bag if you go that route.
Duane

[DANIEL LIM]

which one? are they the same or is one better than the other?

[Hikin’ Jim]

The MSR Rapidfire is an older, discontinued stove that is basically a Whisperlite but runs on canister gas. The Rapidfire is a "sleeper" in that most people don't know what it's capable of (inverted operation for cold weather). Because it's a "sleeper," it can be had for cheap. If you shop around, you can get a Rapidfire for sometimes as low as in the low $30's like Duane did. I've got a review of the Rapidfire on my blog if you're interested.

The down side of the Rapidfire is that it'll be a little heavier than a modern stove like the Primus Express Spider.

If you just want to try if an inverted canister stove is going to work for what conditions you go in, then the Rapidfire is a cheap way to buy in. It's a good stable stove too, just not all the most modern materials and such, but perfectly functional.

Of course, get good gas for winter use. No "regular" butane (n-butane)! Just get isobutane/propane mixes. MSR, Brunton, Snow Peak, and Jetboil are all fine. Avoid Primus, Coleman, or any other brand containing n-butane.

HJ

[Curtis Linville]

Ever consider leaving the fuel at home (or better, in the store). There are several stoves that run on twigs, or grass, etc. They can be cost effective and light, and put out a surprising amount of heat. Better for long trips too.

Some seem a bit flimsy, but some are awesome. I like the 180 Stove. I have used it for a couple years now. It is under $50 on amazon last time I looked.

[Stuart R]

Jim said "Of course, get good gas for winter use. No "regular" butane (n-butane)! Just get isobutane/propane mixes. MSR, Brunton, Snow Peak, and Jetboil are all fine. Avoid Primus, Coleman, or any other brand containing n-butane."

For inverted use, an isobutane/propane mix offers no advantage over n-butane/propane. The WHOLE POINT of inverted use is that the propane does NOT get used up first, and n-butane/propane mixes tend to have more propane in them than isobutane/propane mixes.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hi, Stuart,

The chief advantage in my view of using only isobutane and propane (no n-butane) is that a lot of people start their stoves upright, let the stove warm up, and then invert the canister. In so doing, you will have a bit faster burn off of the propane, and the mix will change over time. Maybe this will be slight, maybe this will be significant, but I'd rather play it safe and just go with an isobutane/propane mix.

I'm going from memory here, but from what I recall from reading the article that you and Roger wrote, there isn't a lot of difference in the pressure available from a 70/30 n-butane/propane mix and a 80/20 isobutane/propane mix. Just my conservative nature, but I'd rather go with the 80/20 iso/pro mix.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Keith Bassett]

I have one of these, and have had good luck with it. It appears to be a windpro clone made from less impressive materials. It is under $17, with shipping included.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/outdoor-camping-mini-portable-gas-stove-81810

I used it 12-15 times this summer and it worked perfectly. It was really nice to be able to throw a windscreen around it, as the cascades can get windy when you come out of the trees. :)

I have used it inverted, and the pre-heat tube works perfectly. Though before initially flipping the canister you will want to lower the flame to a simmer because when it flips to liquid the flame gets bigger.

K

Edit: Whoops. This is very close, but mine has the preheat tube over the burner… So I don't know if they changed the model since I bought but the pic is different. Dealextreme has a bunch of oem clones of the big names though, and many of them are remote canister with preheat tubes. All of them are ~$50 or less. Much less on some.

[DANIEL LIM]

A stove for less than $17, plus free shipping…unbelievable. Well, I contacted them via live chat and they told me they are out of stock. Just my luck. Anyone else have a good deal like this?

[Hikin’ Jim]

Not to rain on anyone's bargain parade, but there have been reports here on BPL and elsewhere of inexpensive "Clone" stoves that clogged when used in inverted mode. Apparently the fuel line became brittle when the cold liquid fuel ran through it and small particles broke off which fouled the stove.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[James Klein]

regardless of liquid feed or not you need a driving pressure to get the fuel out. Liquid must evaporate to replace the volume of the liquid used for fuel.

Higher propane/isobutane (vs regular butane) will provide a higher internal canister pressure for a given temperature and % of fuel left resulting in better cold weather performance.

Figure 4 of you and Roger's article illustrates this rather nicely.

[USA Duane Hall]

I see a number of MSR Rapidfire stoves on Evilbay, one buy-it-now for about what I paid for mine and a few others you can bid on. They are quite a bit heavier I imagine than some of the small imports.
Duane

[Hikin’ Jim]

James,

You're basically right, but the pressure of a n-butane/propane mix vs. a isobutane/propane mix depends on the amounts of each. Given the same percentages, yes of course an isobutane/propane mix will have higher pressure than a n-butane/propane mix.

I think Stuart's point was that an n-butane/propane mix with a high concentration of propane would have better pressure than an isobutane/propane mix with a lesser concentration of propane. Stuart is absolutely correct.

Unfortunately, at least in the US, gas blends with a high percentage of propane aren't generally available. My point was that since an 80/20 isobutane/propane mix has virtually the same pressure as a 70/30 n-butane/propane mix (see Figure 4 below) I'd rather go with the isobutane since if I burn the stove for a bit to warm it before inverting the canister, the isobutane will give me better pressure over the life of the canister.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Click photo to enlarge

Click photo to enlarge

[James Klein]

Jim, thanks for clarifying your pt. I will clarify mine:
I didn't intent to generalize that % of butane would be worse than isobutane regardless of % of propane. What I meant was: generally, the more propane the better and for the remaining % the more isobutane the better.

Stuart said "an isobutane/propane mix offers no advantage over n-butane/propane. This is not correct (at least as I understand it). Look at purple and yellow at 100% gas remaining: each has 30% propane. Yellow has 70% iso and purple has 70%butane. yellow has approx. 10F advantage at sea level — non trivial.

I will agree that for inverted use the butane/isobutan numbers are not as important in determining cold weather performance as they are with upright use. But they are still important.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hi, James,

…generally, the more propane the better and for the remaining % the more isobutane the better.

Agreed.

Look at purple and yellow at 100% gas remaining: each has 30% propane. Yellow has 70% iso and purple has 70%butane. yellow has approx. 10F advantage at sea level — non trivial

Absolutely. And wouldn't it be nice if the 70% iso mix (Kovea I think) were available here in the US?

…for inverted use the butane/isobutan numbers are not as important in determining cold weather performance as they are with upright use. But they are still important.

Agreed. I think we're all pretty much on the same sheet of music here. Thanks for the clarification.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Stuart R]

I said "For inverted use, an isobutane/propane mix offers no advantage over n-butane/propane."
Perhaps I should have said "For inverted use, generally available isobutane/propane mixes offer little advantage over n-butane/propane mixes".

There is a reason that many of the mixtures start of at a similar minimum temperature when 100% full: the canisters are all made to similar specifications and have to withstand the same pressure test. I wonder if some of the more 'exotic' blends don't meet US standards? Generally, a mix with iso-butane will have less propane than a mix with n-butane, but there are exceptions. Whether the difference is significant will depend on your particular circumstances.

[Doug Parker]

Prehaps I am taking this a little off here, but has anyone ever experiemented with making a cozy for the canister, and inserting one of more hot hands inserts to keep the canister temp higher and therefore more efficient?

[Derek Goffin]

if you are dealing with inverted canisters a prewarmed canister in a cosy will stay warm a good while without continuing heat input. The evaporative heat loss inverted is nothing like the loss the rightway up.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Stuart Robb said: I said "For inverted use, an isobutane/propane mix offers no advantage over n-butane/propane."
Perhaps I should have said "For inverted use, generally available isobutane/propane mixes offer little advantage over n-butane/propane mixes". [emphasis added]

Agreed.

Stuart Robb said: I wonder if some of the more 'exotic' blends don't meet US standards?

I think you're on to something there. I notice Powermax fuel in the US is 35% propane, 65% n-butane whereas in the rest of the world it appears to be 40% propane, 60% n-butane. I'm getting my information from the MSDS and from the printed information on the side of Powermax canisters. The US may have safety standards that are overly restrictive.

In the chart from your and Roger's article that I included in an earlier post in this thread, the gold line illustrates perhaps the best cold weather mix of the lot (30% propane/70% isobutane). Such a mix is simply unavailable in the US. About as good as you're going to get is 35/65 propane/n-butane Coleman Powermax.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

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