We need a SUL Thread PLEASE

[Nick Gatel]

Is this some sort of macho thing?

I think Nate nailed it, it is easy though somewhat expensive. Look at Alan Dixon's sub 3 list and price it out for that point in time. Not a super cheap kit.

I have done many SUL trips. Its not a big deal.

Last year Craig and I did a 60 mile loop in less than 3 days. 10,000 feet up, and 10,000 feet down. Low temps around freezing, high temps well above 100F. We did many miles in deep snow too. My base weight was under 4 lbs… trip report with gear list was posted. Today I own some even lighter pieces of gear. And I am 60 years old. 5 lbs FSO, except food and water is doable for me on a 3 day trip with some rain. It is not the most comfortable trip, but it is not agony either.

I would rather concentrate on a great scenic loop with a little comfort, rather than some arbitrary FSO. My goal is to enjoy the wilderness, not set any land speed or weight records.

I really don't think it really deserves its own forum section, lots of people have been doing it for a long time.

I also have no problem putting my words to action. If some of you want to plan a trip in late summer or preferably after Labor Day, and it is not too far from where I live, I will hike with you with a XUL kit. But 3 days and at least 60 miles would be a good test IMO.

[Mike W]

…

[spelt with a t]

It can't be that hard technically to create a sub-forum. The Hammocks sub-forum only gets a couple posts a week–that's posts, not threads–and no one's calling for its elimination.

[W I S N E R !]

"Is this some sort of macho thing?"

You bet.
Prove you can do it and I'll give you the password to get into our secret treehouse.

I'll see your 3 days and 60 miles and raise you 10 miles, a pound, and one day.

So how about 70 miles, 2 days, and 4# FSO?

Hell, how about just 70 miles, 1 day, shorts, shoes, shirt and water bottles?

Wait…Geoff Roes could do that in like 12 hours with only a 2# FSO…

Ok. 100 miles, 1 day, and nothing but Speedos, a leather waterskin, homemade huaraches, and an obsidian knife. And NO TP.

[Eugene Smith]

"I am one of those weirdo’s that considers a 100 mile run no fun because it is just a sprint or a warm up for a real run."

Sorry, this is just wild Aaron.

If anyone deserves to boast it's mountain runner Nick Clark, who ran both the Western States 100 and Hardrock 100 this summer within two weeks of each other, podium finished both (3rd place), and established a new double combined record time with a 15:50 at Western and a finish time of 27:43 at HR. Even Clark humbly acknowledges the respect one has to possess for the distance in the mountains and he'd run circles around you.

[George Matthews]

I like the idea of having a dedicated space for those who want to pursue SUL and like Craig mentioned going for it and then reporting the results. Challenge one another.

Until we get a dedicated forum here, I will set up a space for those interested. We will restrict forum access to only those FOR it. If you want to debate AGAINST it then you can do that here. I love BPL but sometimes there is a very specific niche that just doesn't work in a general forum setting.

PM me if interested.

I'm flying out today for a ten day trip, but will have a rough forum set up very soon.

[Evan McCarthy]

I'm definitely interested in an SUL forum, BPL or otherwise. SUL as a goal and an achievement is fun, particularly for those who go out a lot and like changing things up or working on trade craft for the sake of it. Nothing wrong with this and nothing wrong with not caring about this.

[BlackHatGuy]

"Ok. 100 miles, 1 day, and nothing but Speedos, a leather waterskin, homemade huaraches, and an obsidian knife. And NO TP."

I was in until the NO TP bit. Was even going to get the Zimmer-man to make me some cuben speedos…..

[Michael Levine]

+1 SUL forum!!!

I began at 25lb base weight. I'm now down to 7.5. Getting much lower than that is proving difficult to figure out for me amidst the general topics on BPL forums.

When I pick my biking gear I look to dedicated long distance road bikers, not the weekend folks. When I look for a slackline setup, I look to the folks who have been doing it for years and found what they want, not gibbons at rei. When I want to know how to surf, I don't ask the newcomers. I don't mean this as a slight to UL folks, or even lightweight folks, I am just saying in terms of light, they are the more experienced SUL people whom I might look to for extreme advice.

In short, I want to be lighter, and there should be a group who are so light that they can offer me a shift in perspective and add their own version of insight.

[Jason Klass]

Aaron,

Why don't you just start your own SUL forum? That would eliminate the "noise" altogether.

It's free and very easy to set up with software like this:

http://www.phpbb.com/

[Michael Levine]

I think a new forum would mean leaving the BPL member base we've all come to know and enjoy, plus the annoyance at having even more things on the internet to go to/sign in/upload a pic to/set up pm/whatever else.

[Matt F]

I decided to get into winter camping, and the winter forum was key: I liked having a place to go for dedicated cold weather info. If I decide to do some SUL trips, I want a place to go for that, too. I do think it is fundamentally different than the 8-10 pound base weight I often carry. Sometimes wading through the general gear forum is just too tedious. I agree, too that it's tiring to deal with so many people asking why you want to do something rather than just having folks help you on your way. This shouldn't be a tough fix or detract from anything else on bpl.

Matt

[Jace Mullen]

I agree.

I have used the search button to find the SUL posts and such. They helped me get down to the Überlight baseweight that I enjoyed on the trip. It was really a learning experience, and I fel like I can do normal UL much more comfortably after that. I was also able to see more of a wilderness area then I thought I would ever be able to see in the time that I had. I love the fanaticism that I see in the rare SUL thread. I really like knowing that I can go SUL but I will usually go UL I guess.

I also don't see an argument against having a separate sub-forum for that.

[Diplomatic Mike]

Shouldn't the new thread be called 'Californians who don't get any weather, no rain, no wind, perfect trails, don't need a groundsheet, no ground water, SUL thread'? :)

[Bradley Attaway]

First, thoughts on an XUL definition:

While it's tempting to follow the current trend of using the previous base pack weight tier divided by two–i.e., Lightweight is considered to be sub 20 BPW, UL is generally considered to be sub 10 BPW, SUL is considered to be sub 5 BPW, which would logically make XUL a sub 2.5 BPW–once you're hitting this level (really, once you're even at SUL) the clothing you wear and poles you (might, or in my opinion ought to) carry are too substantial a portion of your load to give any measure that doesn't include them salience. It is therefore necessary for XUL to be FSO based.

At these weights, many Sub 5 FSOers won't be "backpackers", as the activity is understood from a traditional perspective (or lightweight, ultralight, or superultralight) but adventure racers or ultramarathoners and the like. Unfortunately, for these (awesome and crazy) pursuits a 5lb FSO may be considered heavy!

XUL then, need specifically refer to the weight for a backpacking loadout, including "the big 3" of sleep, shelter, and cook systems. I feel without these, the pursuit is no longer properly "backpacking", in which case the weights to which XUL is supposedly relative no longer exist, and the definition thus void.

Moreover, the loadout should be effective for 3 season trips of several days on Class 1 and some 2 terrain in a variety of weather conditions; that is, temperatures down to freezing with the possibility of sustained moderate precipitation and considerable winds with several miles between water availability.

As a big guy, I wish I could create a rigorous definition that allowed a higher weight based on height or mass or foot size (even light size 15EEEE shoes weigh perhaps half a lb more than average sized shoes of the same model, so there goes 10% of my total loadout right there!), but I can't think of one that wouldn't be arbitrary, and since 5lb FSO is arbitrary already (like LW UL and SUL are as well) I think it's better to be simple and arbitrary than complicated and arbitrary.

Definitions set, we come to the point:

XUL thus rigorously, if arbitrarily, defined as 5lb FSO, the best goal, in my opinion, of an XUL gearlist (or any gear list for a category where weight is the given) is not to get simply lighter than the defined weight, because the weight is given, but to hit that weight more elegantly: more comfortable, practical, cheaper, etc.

Alan Dixon (Dixon=Adventure?) perfectly demonstrates this idea of elegance in load with his "full comfort UL gear list" (http://adventurealan.com/lw_gear_list.htm). He's not trying to be lighter than the arbitrary UL definition, he's trying to do UL as elegantly as possible. Likewise, he included a cook system in his XUL Appalachian gearlist(adventurealan.com/2-4_index.htm), because he felt it more elegant.

People will say the above definition is arbitrary and ask what purpose it serves in practice. I agree it's arbitrary, as the definitions of LW and UL and SUL are arbitrary, and the purpose this lower weight tier serves is exactly the same as those above it: longer miles, more comfortable hiking, etc. People will then ask, "does XUL make a practical difference over SUL or even UL towards the achievement of these goals?". In fairness, I don't know, I believe it will make SOME difference, but I don't know. What I do know, is that it sounds like a fun exercise to me, and I think it's an exercise that will inspire and push our little pursuit and its supporting industry forwards.

Earlier in this thread, Craig and I agreed to assemble and test XUL loads in the near future. To Craig, I invite your support of the definition I've laid out above by chasing the greatest elegance possible in our XUL loads, rather than making it a challenge of simply going lighter (I think at 5lb FSO that challenge is highly present!). I think this will make for some fun and standardized pseudo-competition, and since "elegance" is so subjective, it will make for some great debate about the various and necessarily creative solutions to the XUL challenge.

Credit where credit is due: Much of the above definition is inspired by Adventure Alan's article at http://adventurealan.com/2-4_index.htm. In fact, his loadout will be my starting point in putting together my own XUL list for this challenge. I hope I've contributed something to the logic behind the definition he practiced. AdventureAlan.com was my greatest inspiration when I decided to dabble in UL, and continues to be where I direct all newcomers to the pursuit.

Finally, on a personal note: I've just moved to the SF Bay Area and know no backpackers here of any sort. I'd love to meet and hike with anybody in the area! Having spent my whole life reflecting on and emulating that which I admire, I am as awesome as my talents have allowed me to embody the word as I have defined it. In arrogant summary: I am awesome*, let's meet up.

[BlackHatGuy]

Okay, here's what I think. Let's all, at the very same time, just THINK REAL HARD about a new SUL forum being created. I'll bet one will magically appear if we do that! Okay, ready, THINK!!!!!

[Justin C]

+1 for the SUL Forum.

@ Ice Axe – congrats on the triple crown

[Addie Bedford]

You guys: this is adorable. You're asking RYAN for a new forum when you should be asking me! And you're asking in a forum, which I monitor very lightly (and usually only when a post is reported) for matters of time.

I think a dedicated SUL forum is a great idea. I will cheerfully implement it. Then I'll move this whole thread into it. And for future reference, requests sent to me via support issues are read (nearly) every business day. Requests sent to Ryan via the forum community are read by the forum community but not necessarily by the boss man. I will also warn you that I am susceptible to flattery. It's shameless, really. :)

[BlackHatGuy]

"Let's all, at the very same time, just THINK REAL HARD about a new SUL forum being created. I'll bet one will magically appear if we do that! Okay, ready, THINK!!!!!"

SEE! It worked! The power of thought, I tell ya!

[James holden]

no more making fun of people for using toilet paper … keep those dirty bottoms in the SUL where they belong ;)

[Michael Levine]

Thank you Addie =)

[Peter Treiber]

What about a ghetto for Americans who measure things in stone?

Cheers,
Pete

[Jace Mullen]

THANKS!

[D G]

It's been over 6 months since my last backpacking trip and I'm trying to refine my gear list for an upcoming trip this August. Temps will be above freezing. 3 days/2 nights.
I have to confess my gearlist has suffered from item creep over the last 2 years with the weight slowly climbing upwards and I want to get back on the wagon with reducing the weight of my items. I've been an ultralight hiker in the past but my goal now is to venture into the SUL category.

Would appreciate any advice for reducing my weight. I'm a little bit embarassed that I don't actually have weights for all these items but the pack on my back does feel a bit heavy.

Thanks!

Backpack Osprey Aether 70
Boots Asolo Fugitive
Head lamp Princeton Tec Fuel
Knife/multi-tool Gerber Clutch multi-tool
Pack rain cover REI Duck’s Back rain cover
Sleeping bag REI Zen 25+ degree
Sleeping pad Therm-a-rest ProLite
Stove and fuel Snow Peak Giga Power and MSR IsoPro 400g canister
Cooking pot 2 L Aluminum pot
Eating gear Spoon (or spork), bowl, and cup
Tent REI Quarter Dome T2 (two person)
Water bottle/bladder 2 Nalgene bottles or 2-3 L Camel-bak hydration bladder
Water treatment Portable Aqua Iodine, Portable Aqua Chlorine Dioxide tablets, or Katadyn Hiker Pro water filter
Whistle Fox40
Toilet paper (lots) Plain, white, unscented in a plastic bag to protect it from rain
wet ones wipes
Hand sanitizer
Cat-hole trowel Orange plastic kind
Small First-aid kit prescription medications : zolpidem, zoloft, ambien (for sleep)
few small gauze pads, moleskin, blister bandages, hydrocortisone cream, benadryl Bandana 1-2
Fleece or wool sweater 1
Hiking (wool) socks 3
Liner socks (polypropylene, coolmax, or silk) 2
Hiking shirt (short sleeved wicking t-shirt or
long sleeved wicking shirt) 1
Hiking shorts/pants (hiking convertible pants)
! 1
Lightweight long underwear (tops and
bottoms) 1
Lightweight stocking cap 1
Lightweight gloves (or liner gloves) 1
Breathable rain coat and rain pants 1
Sun hat 1
Wicking underwear 1-2OvCamp shoes or sandals 1
Down booties 1
Heavy gloves and/or mittens 1
Heavy long underwear (top and bottom) 1
Insulated vest or fleece vest 1
Insulated jacket
fleece jacket 1
Insulated pants or fleece pants 1
Button down shirt with convertible sleeves
(e.g. ExOfficio Air Strip) Headnet

Camp towel (small sized)
55 gallon trash bags (3)
Camp hatchet
Camp knife
Lighter
Fire starter balls
Colt 1911 revolver
100 rounds 45 Long Colt bullets
2 extra bullet clips
quik clot emergency trauma pak
•
Compact binoculars
bird watching scope
BPL Skurka bobble head talisman (for luck)
•
Small digital camera with extra lenses
•
Lightweight camp chair or sitting pad (i.e. Crazy Creek,
•
Therm-a-rest chair kit)
Buff
•
Sleeping bag liner
•
Individually wrapped personal wash wipes (used ones must
•
be packed out)
Dedicated sleep clothing (e.g. silk camisole, underwear,
•
t-shirt, long underwear, etc.)

[Thomas Burns]

nm

[Author]

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