Turkey’s Lycian Way and Saint Paul Trail

[William Chilton]

It is easy to pick up transport at many points along the Lycian Way. I would suggest considering doing several sections rather than choosing one half or the other.

[john hansford]

My wife and I walked the whole Lycian Way over two autumn holidays using pensions to stay in and taxis to skip the boring road bits ( wife's style not mine! ). We preferred the eastern bit, and we started from a track off the main road at Camyuva, north of Phaselis, staying at Tekirova, Cirali, Adrassan and Karaoz. We then did Kapakli to Apollonia staying in Ucagiz. I think that route would give anyone a great week's walking. If you walk a bit faster, then double days and getting to Kas or beyond would be quite feasible.

In October most of the cisterns are dry, so camping and picking up water might be difficult.

[john hansford]

1. We were using written directions and Kate's map. It was not unusual to be "temporarily uncertain of position" after directions like " turn right after the second tree after the rock"' when the whole hillside is covered with rocks and trees! Hence I am greatly looking forward to joining the tech age for my next trip out there, probably with my son's cast off iPhone3. I am still a little unclear how to get the waypoints from the book to the phone. I saw your gpx files, but still need more clues. Once there, do they show up on the OpenCycleMaps, and are they named as per the book?

2. I will be UL camping , and am wondering what night temperatures you encountered? And was there much rain?

3. Do you think the SPT preferable to the Kackar as a hiking experience if going maybe a month later?

[Amy Lauterbach]

"1. We were using written directions and Kate's map. It was not unusual to be "temporarily uncertain of position" after directions like " turn right after the second tree after the rock"' when the whole hillside is covered with rocks and trees! Hence I am greatly looking forward to joining the tech age for my next trip out there, probably with my son's cast off iPhone3. I am still a little unclear how to get the waypoints from the book to the phone. I saw your gpx files, but still need more clues. Once there, do they show up on the OpenCycleMaps, and are they named as per the book?"

Follow the directions in our article in order to save battery power: http://adventurealan.com/iphone4gps.htm The iPhone 3 should be the same as the iPhone 4, excepting the duration of the battery life may not be the same, and I've heard that the GPS may not be quite as accurate (but have no real data about that).

Regarding my gpx and kml files of the trails, I have shared our track, but didn't include any waypoint data (except our campsites which undoubtedly won't be the same as your campsites). You can just download the file and open it in Google Earth in order to see what the file contains. (The kmz file opens directly; if you open the gpx format file in Google Earth it may pop a dialog, in which case say "Create KML LineStrings").

You can get Kate's GPX files instead of ours. IIRC Her files include waypoint names. http://trekkinginturkey.com/BooksAndMaps/maps.html

If you've never used any gps data before, then before trying to deal with my gpx or kml file, you should just experiment with your own small file. It's very easy to create a gpx file by using BikeRouteToaster.com – just make a short track near your home and use that simple track you created to learn how to use Gaia GPS on the iPhone.
Buy the app called "Gaia GPS" for your iPhone 3. Set the map layer to OpenCycleMap. WHEN YOU HAVE WIFI CONNECTION: Import the gpx file into Gaia (they give instructions for how to do that). Then go to your list of saved tracks in Gaia, select a track you just imported, in the upper right corner of the screen is a little arrow-like icon, click that, then choose Download Maps for Track. Then wait a while while it gets all the files.
Disclaimer – Gaia is not so good at handling waypoints. It puts all of your waypoints into one place, not organized into folders and not sortable. The app is very good at tracks, and it displays the waypoints but does not allow you to manage them easily.
Next, with Gaia. Go to Settings->Help->Add Topo Map Sources->ESRI World Imagery. That will allow you to download satellite imagery as well as OpenCycleMap. Repeat the same process to download the sat imagery that you followed to download the CycleMaps – be careful though as Gaia has a design flaw right now such that it gets an enormous amount of data when you download sat imagery for a track, so if you don't have much capacity on your phone you might run out of space. Play around with it and you'll find out.

"2. I will be UL camping , and am wondering what night temperatures you encountered? And was there much rain?"
We had some rain, but not extensive. I don't have any idea what the normal pattern is. We never had frost at night on the Lycian or SPT, low temps were probably in the 50s. But we did have damp cool weather in the Kackars.

"3. Do you think the SPT preferable to the Kackar as a hiking experience if going maybe a month later?"
No opinion about that. So much of the success of a trip is about weather and random acts of kindness or fortuitous wildlife encounters or whatnot. We THOROUGHLY enjoyed being in the Kackars in the snow, before anything was occupied – truly magical experience that I will never forget. And probably a completely different experience from being there when the mountain villages are occupied, which they would be a month later.

I hope this helps. Ask more questions if anything else comes up. Amy

[Amy Lauterbach]

Tord, I asked Jim last night and he also didn't have a preference for east vs west. Both were enjoyable.

Regarding hopping from section to section via bus – it's easy to do that. Combination of hitching, bus, and taxi would work fine. Jim and I prefer to stay on foot once we start a walk; part of the magic of a long hike is the flow and rhythm, and many of our best experiences were in completely unexpected places we would have missed if we had tried to stay in the "most scenic" sections. I don't think of the Lycian Way or SPT as scenic wonders (Southern Utah, California's Sierra Nevada, Wyoming's Wind River Range, Haute Route Pyrenees – all are substantially more scenic) — the magic of the place is that the Turkish people are so extraordinarily gracious, and to best enjoy their hospitality I think it helps to get away from the tourist areas. For example, one of our most memorable campsites was in the river bed on the edge of the town of Demre – probably not on anybody's list of top destinations in Turkey :)

[john hansford]

Amy,

You must be a fast typer! Thanks so much for all that information. I shall have a go ASAP, fingers crossed.

John.

[Ulla Hoppe]

Hi Amy,
Thanks a lot for your detailed information on the Saint Paul Trail. This made us “hungry” and we consider doing it ourselves. However, the following issues are bothering us, so your response is very welcome:
1) Do we have to bring a tent to walk the Saint Paul Trail or are there pensions / private accommodation available each day. Is there a daily possibility to buy food along the trail?
2) Dogs: we have read your responses regarding dogs in the forum on your web-page, but still would like to know, whether you have noticed shepherd-dogs / flocks of sheep on the Saint Paul Trail. What type of encounters with dog is to be expected on the trail? We are no "dog-heroes", therefore this information is essential for us and our decision to walk this trail. We probably would follow your suggestions to pass the dogs at the housing out of Kemerdamları by car.
3) As we already had bad experiences (20 years ago), would you expect problems for 2 (middle-aged) women to walk the path and to camp in the outside / in rural areas.

Thanks, Ulla

[Amy Lauterbach]

Typing on tiny iPhone keypad, so will be brief.

#3 is easy. I also have had bad experience traveling with just 2 women (35 years ago) so I appreciate the question. I felt completely safe there, even more so than in the U.S. I would not hesitate to travel with another woman and no man.

About no tent… There are not always formal accommodations. But we were invited many times per day for tea, and very often asked ( via hand gestures) if we needed a place to sleep. So I think it is likely you could find something, but it may not be predictable. I can't overstate the generosity of the Turks. We recently spent 5 weeks hiking In Australia and received only one offer of tea. We are now on day 12 of hike in Spain and have had only one offer of tea. In Turkey many times per day people invited us for tea or food or a bed. It may be best to take a sleeping bag and pad though, as your invitation may come from a shepherd who only has a crude hut to offer; I wouldn't count on a proper bed with bedding.

As to dogs, that's harder to answer. We did encounter shepherd dogs, but only those I mentioned were scary. The dogs in other countries have been at least as bad. I just don't know what to say.

And one final thing. I finished the first five lessons of Pimsleur Audio Language Lessons and it helped A LOT, just being able to say my nationality and a few very basic phrases made it easier to interact.

Good luck – amy

[Amy Lauterbach]

Updated addition from Jim. He said he wouldn't hike St Paul trail with no tent. There are some long stretches between towns and you just can't predict when you'll find a generous person.

[T N]

Hi

We made the trip and it was great, we did not get as far as expected but is was a really nice trip. Thanks alot for the gps track, it is so much more useful compared to the original from the book which does not have as many points. We used hammocks and in the eastern part at least made us have a huge selection of camp sites compared to tent. Quite nice hanging at a bay by the mediterrenian :-)

[Amy Lauterbach]

Mr T,
We're glad you had a good trip in Turkey. If you have photos or a trip report, please add a link on this thread so I don't miss it.
Thanks, Amy&Jim

[Benoit Fontaine]

Wow! Thank you very much for the detailed report!

My wife and I are planning to hike the Lycian Way for 7 to 10 days starting from Ovacik. Our initial plan is to start our hike on October 23, 2012 but we now realized that the very important festival Kurban Bayramı start on October 24 until October 28 then followed by the Republic day on Monday the 29. We are not planning on camping so we will rely on accommodations in the villages. We will carry light sleeping bags so we can sleep outside once in a while if the weather is nice. I know you went in spring but could you (or other hikers reading this forum) comment on these questions:

1.How accommodations would be affected? (closed? Fully booked?)

2.Could we have problems finding food?

3. If we delay our start until November 1st
a. Will the weather get really worse?
b. Will most of the accommodations in the small villages be closed for winter?

4. You describe very well the use of an iPhone 4 as a GPS. Do you have an idea if it would work with an iPad or a tablet?

Thank you,

Benoit

[William Chilton]

Benoit, my wife and I live in the south of Turkey (opposite end of Mediterranean from the Lycian Way) and we've section hiked a few sections of the LW. The first time was 2 years ago during Kurban Bayramı, which fell in the second half of November, from the start at Ovacık to Kalkan and staying at village pansiyonlar (guest houses).
1. We had no problems with accommodation, in spite of not booking in advance. Each evening, we would phone ahead to where we intended to stay the next night to make a provisional booking, and then phone to confirm the next day when we were sure we would make it. The day before the start of Bayram, we stayed with the local imam, and spent the evening with the watching the TV coverage of the coming holiday. There wry comments on the TV commentary was ironic and funny in the circumstances. Some accommodations are very small, though, so you could have problems if you are unlucky (regardless of the Bayram).
2. We had no problems with food.
3. a. There will be no noticeable difference in the weather due to such a short delay.
b. Village accommodation shouldn't be affected, except in mountain villages which are only occupied in summer. They will probably be closed at the end of August, too.
You should be aware that the clocks change on the last Sunday in October. You will lose an hour of daylight in the evening but gain it in the morning. However, if you are having breakfast provided, you may be limited in how early you can eat and so use the extra morning light.
You should also know that some water sources will be dry (whichever start date you choose). Demre to Finike could be especially problematic.
Weather-wise, late October and November are the best time for the Lycian Way, in my opinion.
If you have any questions on where we stayed, etc, pm me. The Ovacık to Kalkan section is the only one where we stayed in local accommodation. Other times we camped.

[Amy Lauterbach]

Benoit wrote "You describe very well the use of an iPhone 4 as a GPS. Do you have an idea if it would work with an iPad or a tablet?"

The iPad WITH Cellular service includes a GPS chip and should work for navigation just like the iPhone does.
The Wi-Fi only iPad does not include a GPS chip and will not work for navigation.

[Benoit Fontaine]

Thank you, the information you sent pointed me in the good direction to do some research. I found that the Google Nexus 7 has an integrated "real GPS", no need to have connectivity if I preload the maps. Seems like a good solution at half the price of an iPad.

I'm not sure yet if I'll go technological. I'm still considering printing paper maps from opencyclemap.org in addition to Kate's book and map. I know I would get lost once in a while as in the old days…

[Chris S]

It’s been a few years but Amy’s OP is still one of the best summaries of the Lycian Way on the web.
And having just done 200kms worth (with a packraft), that was a cracking pace in just 17 days. You are pros!
I must admit I didn’t really get into the rhythm of the LW but greatly enjoyed the ruins, rural Turkish culture, wildflower meadows and the all-too-infrequent paddle. I’ve not done a walk this long (or this hard) for years.

I also used the 2009 guide and Amy’s analysis is spot on: as a concept and cultural guide, very good – as a practical walking guide… well textual descriptions will always have their limits and that’s why they invented maps. But this book’s’ description is poor and the 2009 map lazily executed. I picked up the 2014 edition in Kas. Less awful layout but more typos (places and distances) and same, often incomprehensible route descriptions. The map is more accurate and less cluttered – unfortunately that includes dropping positions of springs, wells and cisterns which I found very useful and often correct. No scale again, as mentioned (about 1:150k). For that reason the 2009 map is better for me. Both will fall apart if you use them too much.
As some may know the book is now accompanied by an iPhone app with the all-important tracklog. I didn’t use it but some who did found a much better third-party version here:
https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/trekright-lycian-way/id934887392
German-speaking walkers had their own orange guidebook: pocket sized (who would have thought!) and no complaints. When in doubt, follow the Germans.
I did get an old set of official waypoints (probably from 2009 edition era) and – having messed up importing Amy’s tracklog – would have wasted a lot more time without these. Surprisingly, they’re actually very logically and intuitively labelled. When all else fails fire up the GPS and aim for the nearest one. Worked for me every time.
Short version: buy an iPhone beater, remove SIM (it was suggested) and install the trekright app for six bucks. Save the book for the evenings, exploring ruins, kindling.
Or, if not carrying an app device, print off the detailed OSMs with all the waypoints and tracklogs that will load into Base Camp. That’s what I wish I’d done.

I hope you all don’t mind my hijack to give a mini update from 2015

Waymarks. Hit and miss as Amy said, but cairns have filled in the gaps.

Dogs: Walkers I met had scary encounters or nips, including me. Seems it’s the town dogs that do the biting. Just as well as getting attacked by one of the huge kangal shepherd guard dogs does not bear thinking about. One woman took a day out for a rabies jab, but no rabies there for decades they say. I had to throw a couple of stones and was glad of my paddle shaft but for untethered kangals I diverted to the undergrowth.

Water: Drank it straight, no probs. Will take a small dry bag and line next time (as book advises) for deep wells and cisterns.

Did someone mention gaiters? I can see a use for them now on the dense, thorny scrub of the LW. My scabs are still healing…

Accom: Never booked, Paid from 50 to 100TL half board. Heaps of great locations for wild camping – best with a water nearby and carrying enough food. Not sure I could manage that so I succumbed to the pensions.

Internet: 2TL an hour. Many pensions had wi-fi. ATMs in all towns. Mouth-watering Carrefours (French supermarket chain) in Fethiye, Kalkan, Kas and Demre (maybe more eastwards). I found the few village shops a bit short on fresh food.

Transport: Easy and amazingly cheap by UK standards. Something like 4TL / 20kms or just 25TL to cover the 4 hours/150km from Demre back to Dalaman airport (near Fethiye).

Costs: I averaged 100TL/day over 12 days – mostly on half-board pensions.

My favourite stages/bits:
Kabak to Bel. Strayed onto the north route via amazing Sidyma.
Walking/paddling Patara Beach (short-cut around inland LW)
Gok to Çukurbag. Lofty Phellos ruins and lovely Dere pension at the end
Paddling out of Uçagiz. Should have stayed in the boat that day!

Early April was a perfect great time. Felt the walk was getting a bit samey by Demre, but still plan to do the remainder one time.

Chris S

https://apaddleinmypack.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/lycian-way-with-packraft/

[Amy Lauterbach]

Chris – that's an exceptionally useful update. Thanks so much for posting.

[bart cartuyvels]

Hello,

I was wondering if the SPT could be walked in July-August ? I can't find any dates with the travel agencies for this period and was wondering what the reason could be. Has anybody feedback on this ?

Thx !

[Amy Lauterbach]

hot in summer. Average daily high in Antalya in July and August is 93 to 96F. Average daily low temp still above 70F.
https://weatherspark.com/#!dashboard;a=Turkey/Antalya

[William Chilton]

MOST of the St Paul Trail can be walked in summer, particularly early July and possibly late August (I have no personal experience of the latter). If you coincide with unusually hot weather, it might get a bit tough, though.
In 2012, between the 24th and 28th July, my wife and I walked the section between Sutculer and Egirdir. We coincided with a heatwave and daily highs of 38 celcius and it was tough but we still managed to enjoy it.
In 2013 we returned and between the 18th and 31st July we hiked from Yalvac (Antioch in Pisidia) to Egirdir, and Adada to Beskonak (end of the southeast branch, which Amy didn't hike. This is virtually the whole of the north and southeast branches, minus a couple of days south of Egirdir, which we'd hiked the year before. Temperatures were normal for the time of year – about 10 celcius lower than the previous year. We met no other hikers, nor did we hear of any, on either trip.
Amy is correct about the temperature in Antalya (and I wouldn't recommend the Lycian Way in summer), but the SPT is away from the coast and at higher altitude. We chose the southeast branch (rather than the southwest, which Amy hiked) because it has a higher average altitude (I don't recommend the southwest branch in summer). Having since hiked the southwest branch, I think the southeast has the better hiking.
Hiking north to south makes more sense as then the hotter southern couple of days have less altitude gain.
If I could, I would chose to hike the SPT in spring, but if you're tolerant of a little heat summer is fine under normal weather conditions.

[Soren Riis-Vestergaard]

In 2013 I hiked part of the SPT in July. PersonallyI would not recommend it. It is hot but I am okay with hot. My big problem was that too many Water sources indicated in Kate Clow's guide were dried out. due to the lack of Water I had to change my plans.

[shawn Mallay]

I can't speak directly for the SPT as I have not walked it but I know a lot of people avoid the Lycian Way during the summer months because of the heat. It could possibly be due to the same reason.

[Amy Lauterbach]

I just got a nice message from Karem, from Istanbul, who recently hiked part of the St Paul Trail.  He posted his trip report and gpx track here:  http://www.wikiloc.com/<wbr />wikiloc/view.do?id=13436087

His trip report is in Turkish, followed by the same report in English, so scroll down if you want to read it.

During his four days on the trail he met four other parties (One each French, Russian, Brits, and German).  When we were there we met only one other party, so that implies to me that the trail is getting more popular.  Reading his little report reminded me of how much we enjoyed our time in Turkey.  Maybe it’s time to try another of the long trails in Turkey:  http://cultureroutesinturkey.com/

[Roger Caffin]

While singing the praises of Erdogan and dodging the warfare?

Forgive me, but hum …

Cheers

 

[Amy Lauterbach]

We have updated and improved this trip report and posted the new version at our website:

Turkey: Lycian Way Trip Report

Turkey: Saint Paul Trail

The human rights situation is rapidly deteriorating in Turkey, and the descent into autocracy is well underway. We’re lucky we went when we did.

[Author]

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