Clothing: Insect Shield Bug Off vs Permitheon Sprayed On Yourself

[Kevin Lane]

Has anyone seen a comparison between the effectiveness of the store bought insect repellent clothing and clothing that you can spray the permitheon (spelling might be off there) on yourself? Based on advertisements, it appears that the spray on version does not last as long. My question is if anyone knows of comparative effectiveness during the time period that the spray on is supposedly effective/

Thanks
Paddy

[Steven McAllister]

Permethrin is Permethrin, once clothes have been treated, they can last several washings or several months, if applied correctly.

[Brian Dickens]

I have used buzz off and permethrin.

Buzz off is treated from the factory and mine at least also had teflon on/in it.

It works great, don't wash it much and it will last. I believe it works slightly better than soaking with sawyer permethrin. Both work REALLY great.

I have used the buzz off and permethrin in conditions where you could get hundreds of bites in an hour or two, even if you blazing. Flies/skeeters would go through normal lightweight clothing. With hat, pants, socks, long sleeve shirts of permethrin, only bites were an occasional bit on the hand or face, very rare.

I use it rather than DEET.
http://www.chinookmed.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=03502

Seems like the now are going for the spray vs. soak. Soak is easier, IMO and less airbourne permethrin.

[Todd T]

Treating things yourself is nice for several reasons. First, you can treat just about anything–hats, socks, gaiters, bandannas, you name it. Soaking is nice because you can buy the much cheaper "real" Permethrin instead of the prediluted expensive stuff the outfitter stores sell to hikers. Look in the horse products section of your local farm store. You have to dilute it yourself, but it costs about one twentieth as much.

[JERRY WELTER]

my only question is, how does the industrial strength stuff react to sweat ? would it reactivate or be dangerous ? I do keep the horse spray in my car and have been known to spray my pants and shirt ect on day hikes where I no the ticks are frequent , but wondered if sweating was reacting to it ?…… Jerry

[james w glenn]

Could some one with a Sawyer product check on the listed percentage of Permethrin in the spray? I've read the full strength stuff at home depot can be diluted with water.

[Ken K]

Sawyer Permethrin – 0.5%

Worked pretty well at Boundary Waters last summer during the days. After dark, nothing worked (permethrin, deet, the "natural" stuff, hiding in a tent, etc.).

[Jerry Adams]

The Sawyer Permethrin costs $16 at REI and lasts forever

If you buy the horse stuff, yeah, it's cheaper per ounce, but I bet a package doesn't cost significantly less than $16, and probably, it will become old and maybe ineffective so you'de have to throw it away so you're not really saving anything

Plus, permethrin is bad a s s stuff and you're best off not handling it more than necesary – mixing it with water – better to just get the ready-to-use container

Unless you have a horse stable, in which case you'de use a lot more so it would make sense

[Michael Ray]

You shouldn't have skin contact with permethrin solution but it's not hard to wear gloves. Keep any cats away, too! Once it has dried fully, it is safe if it gets wet again. There's no expiration I'm aware of, and the concentrated stuff will allow you to do far more than the Sawyer or other pre-made brands.

The BuzzOff type clothing is using a higher concentration than 0.5, which is why it lasts longer. Some argue the inert ingredients enable it to stick to clothing better. HYOH.

[Todd T]

Jerry said: "The Sawyer Permethrin costs $16 at REI and lasts forever"

Not sure what you mean by forever. I think I remember reading on the label that it's good for six weeks or six washings. And one bottle wasn't quite enough for one treatment of two hikers' clothing. The "real" stuff costs about the same for enough permethrin for 20-40 treatments, depending on how many garments are done each time. There's no expiration date on the bottle.

I wear rubber gloves and do it in a well ventilated garage.

[Jerry Adams]

"Jerry said: "The Sawyer Permethrin costs $16 at REI and lasts forever"

Not sure what you mean by forever"

Funny how something is obvious when you write it but there's another interpretation.

It takes many years before you use up all the contents in one bottle.

Treats many garments.

The stuff you treat by washing a garment has treatment for one (or a few?) garments per container of permethrin.

[John Nausieda]

Something you should consider in applying any pesticide is the Inert ingredients vs. the Active ingredient as per the MSDS label.I am concerned that many of the applications labeled for use in animal situations are listing petroleum distillates in the Inert label portion. It is unclear whether this is a difference from a human label applying to clothes etc. e.g. the Sawyer stuff. It gives me pause and believe me the field can be arcane. I used to hold a pesticides operator's license in Oregon which is achieved through testing but inert ingredients are a very gray area. I've been off line for a while with a HDD drive crash, but I'll warn you that the availability of Permethrin at a good price with physical store sales got attenuated about 3 weeks ago at Home Despot as Ortho Total Kill was remaindered out . A conversation with a leading clerk yielded the advice" Once it goes it never returns".

[Michael Ray]

Todd's experience echos most of the reviews I've read. You don't get that many garments out of a bottle of the spray-on stuff whereas you can do a LOT by buying it concentrated and making a reduced solution. The reviewers at REI were only getting 2-4 sets of gear for a 24 oz bottle and one even advocated buying more concentrated and self-diluting to save lots of money.

[james w glenn]

I went down to Home Depot and found "Hot Shot bed bug and flea spray" I think it said .3% pyrethrum. It is listed as non staining for bedding and carpets. The directions say to wash treated bedding before use. The price was under $10 for a gallon.

[Michael Ray]

Not sure that is the same thing.

> If you buy the horse stuff, yeah, it's cheaper per ounce, but I bet a package doesn't cost significantly less than $16

I checked what I had. $16 for 32 oz of 10% permethrin, so I could make 26 bottles (24 oz) worth of the Sawyer stuff. I prefer a stiffer concentration though.

[james w glenn]

Anyone got a link for the "horse stuff"

[peter vacco]

you can buy permithrin off amazon at 36% for about 38 bucks a quart. that makes a LOT of .5% solution. it comes out of texas as i recall. works ok. not sure if it works as exactly well as sawyers, and have no way to test for certain, but i have been straying on things for some time, and all seems well.
the petro-poison worriers .. will worry. that's generally what they do. and that's fine… to a point.
i don't worry. and i crank a lot of miles. and that's fine too.
testing such as i can do it shows that making it stronger than maybe 1% does not up the amps any.

v.

[Todd T]

'Anyone got a link for the "horse stuff"'

Here's a link for the stuff I've been using:

http://www.durvet.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=92:permethrin-10&Itemid=65

This is a 10% solution. I dilute it at about 1 oz per gallon of water.

[Michael Ray]

The 36% is the highest I've seen. Mine (10%) is sold as Carpenter Ant killer. I dilute to about 2-2.5%.

> This is a 10% solution. I dilute it at about 1 oz per gallon of water.

You're going much weaker than the Sawyer stuff in that case. 10% should be diluted 1:20 to get to 0.5% and you're doing 1:128.

[Dale Wambaugh]

These are all poisonous, so I would advise using them as labeled. I would not use any insecticide to treat clothing unless it is made and sold for that purpose, and follow the directions. Just because something is made from a biological source doesn't make it safer.

[Jerry Adams]

I agree, that stuff is poisonous

That's why the pre-mixed stuff is better, you don't have to handle it so much

If you do it properly, it is possible to safely mix it and stuff, but if you're just doing it one time, there's a learning curve,…

The 16 ounce bottle says it treats "one complete outfit"

I just treat my boots and gaiters, once per year right about now at the beginning of the tick season. I've done it several times and my 16 ounce bottle is still mostly full. It will take quite a few years to use up.

I don't know what the shelf life is, but normally, after a few years it will lose effectiveness.

For me, there is no savings in buying a bigger bottle.

If you treat your entire outfit, several times per year, then the bigger bottle would be cheaper.

But, do you really want all that exposure to nasty poisons? They say it's safe if you let it dry, but you probably get some exposure, and you probably get some exposure when you apply it.

If you're in a Lyme disease or Malaria area then the poison would probably be a smaller risk.

[Steven McAllister]

It is common to dilute the horse permethrin to 0.5% and treat clothing.
The spray is too expensive when treating a lot of clothing, I mean like a whole family.

Sweat has no effect. Once it has dried you can wash clothing several times without washing it away. It does become less effective after time. I have been told several months.

Don't be stupid with the stuff. In it's liquid form, it is harmful to cats, fish and others.
Treat, dry then wash all clothing and it should be safe, but not until then.

Be aware that ticks are by far the most dangerous animal in the North East and can also be an issue throughout the US.

A very high percentage of outdoors people in my neck of the woods have had Lyme disease. Those that didn't detect it early enough have suffered from extended flue symptoms, arthritis, Bells-Palsy and even worse.

You can't always detect it right away.

Most of my hiking partners have had it at least once, some twice.

If there are any supposed dangers with Permethrin, they can't compare to the dangers of not using it.

[Don Bushek]

The veterinary and Home Depot concentrates are labeled as containing petroleum distillates. The Sawyer products do not. So it would appear that they are not identical in their ingredients.

I'm not a "petro-poison worrier", as Peter Vacco disparagingly referred to those less non-chalant as himself. Nevertheless, I am concerned about the impacts of petroleum distillate "inert" ingredients on the clothing to which the veterinary products are applied. Many of the fabrics in outdoor clothing are also petroleum-based (Capilene and other polyester-based fabrics, for example), as well as being highly dependent on surface properties to do what we bought them to do (wick moisture, for another example). I can imagine a strong affinity between those fabrics and the petroleum-based inerts, and I think it's reasonable to imagine that the fabric's performance might be compromised.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's noticed or not noticed a change in their clothing's performance after being treated with a non-Sawyer product.

Don

[Steven McAllister]

@Don

I can understand the concern about the problem with having equivalent to gasoline applied to your clothing and you do smell it when treating.

I have not had issue with it deteriorating the clothing, but that may be because after being diluted with so much water before treatment, the percentage of gasoline is too low to do much harm to synthetics.

My mind has changed on the subject. Since I live in a confined apartment, I'm beginning to think the bulk veterinary stuff is too much a a pain to use twice or more a year.

Although the Sawyer is more expensive, it's nice to be able to just spray, dry then wash.

[Barry P]

“I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's noticed or not noticed a change in their clothing's performance after being treated with a non-Sawyer product.”

I’ve used veterinarian/pet stuff and sawyer (and other like human sprays). I noticed the difference in Southern IL and in MO while backpacking. The veterinarian stuff did not kill tics. The sawyer stuff did excellent; I watch the tics walk up my pants a few inches, curl up, die, and fall off.

So I think the veterinarian stuff does not stick to our clothes as well as Sawyer; and that probably has something to do with the inert ingredients.

Just another thought,
-Barry

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