What defines a down sweater?

[Randy Nelson]

This has probably been covered multiple times in the past but I'm not having much luck searching for it. What exactly defines makes a garment a down sweater as opposed to a down jacket? Thanks.

[Bob Gross]

A jacket nearly always has a tough enough exterior shell that it will stand up to a bit of weather, or walking through the bushes. Typically, the down sweater or the down inner jacket does not have the tough exterior shell, and it is expected that you have some tough exterior shell over it to take care of rain, major wind, and bushes. Sometimes, the inner jackets will omit exterior features such as pockets and zippers. My inner jacket has only snaps.

–B.G.–

[Randy Nelson]

Thanks Bob. That's exactly what I was looking for. And now so is a down sweater.

[Bob Gross]

For years, I have used all sorts of heavy insulating jackets for backpacking. Just a few years ago, I purchased two light items. One is a Western Mountaineering down vest that weighs 6 ounces. The other is a Mont Bell down inner jacket that weighs a tiny bit more. Together, in my size, they add up to 12.95 ounces, and that is a good deal of warmth with a good deal of flexibility of use.

–B.G.–

[EndoftheTrail]

I wouldn't worry about where the line is drawn simply because there is no line!! It's mostly "marketing speak" so you'll just be wasting time (not to mention driving yourself crazy) trying to be scientific about this. Case in point:

Patagonia Men's Down Sweater" – the shell is "1.4-oz 22-denier 100% recycled polyester ripstop".

MontBell Ex Light Jacket – the shell is 1.1oz. 7-denier "airlight" nylon.

I would be hard pressed to say the Montbell jacket shell is tougher than the Patagonia sweater's shell. The reverse may actually be true!

What I do is simply read through the "labeling" (I call them all jackets) — and just focus on the garments themselves. Moosejaw uses both terms together… for better search hits..

[Bob Gross]

You have to keep a sharp eye on those companies. Sometimes they will accidentally mix up their terms to catch the unsuspecting customer. Sometimes they call a down jacket a down parka, even though it has no hood. A parka, by definition, has a hood.

They might say that the pullover has a zipper, when they really meant that it has a quarter-zipper, not a full zipper.

Most of the time, the person assembling the web site descriptions has never even touched the garments. That person is just taking text from one marketing department and importing it into the text of another marketing department. That's a bit like the blind leading the blind.

–B.G.–

[EndoftheTrail]

I doubt those are accidents. It's just "whatever sells" — within some broad, fuzzy conventional wisdom type guidelines.

In a way, it's kind of like the term "ultralight". REI, for example, uses that term pretty liberally (as viewed by some of us here in the UL community anyway). Pity the newbie buying REI ultralight this or that — and thinking he's got the lightest gear around. How useful is this term anymore?

[Ken Larson]

So what is the “operational definition” to define these "Marketing Inconsistencies…..? Variables that one can use as a measure to define a sweater from a jacket?

Two products as an example.

FEATHERED FRIENDS DAYBREAK JACKET
• Flite Nylon shell (Flite is a 15 denier High Tenacity mini rip stop nylon that is treated with DWR finish)
• 850+ Fill Power
• DownFill Weight: 3.1 oz
• Average Weight: 213 g/7.5 oz
• Sewn through construction
• Zippered insulated pockets Stuff
• Stuff sack included

PATAGONIA MEN'S DOWN SWEATER
• Superlight, windproof and water-resistant shell has high-tear strength Quilted construction stabilizes
• 800-fill-power premium European goose down
• Pockets: two zippered handwarmers, one zippered stretch-mesh that doubles as a stuff sack with carabiner clip-in loop
• Nylon-bound elastic cuffs and drawcord hem seal warmth in and drafts out
• Shell and lining: 1.4-oz 22-denier 100% recycled polyester ripstop with a Deluge® DWR (durable water repellent) finish
• Weight 368 g /(13 oz)

[James holden]

there are all misnamed anyways …. you should sweat in any of em if they are down

ignore it as said … most of the time the naming is some jedi marketing mind trick

use the specs and the fit when you try it on

[Randy Nelson]

Thanks for all the replies. I won't worry about how they are named. I just want something light for camp use to replace my old, relatively heavy and bulky down jacket. I'll concentrate on what the details instead of the names.

[Randy Nelson]

Bob mentioned combining a vest and jacket for more versatility. But do you then need to go up a size in the jacket to avoid compressing the down in the vest? If you did, then you'd have a looser fitting jacket if you wanted to wear it without the vest. How much compression is OK? If I'm going to get 2 pieces, I'd like them to work together and separately.

[Bob Gross]

I can't say about sizes. I'm easy to fit. If you were near the boundary of one size, then it could get complicated. Plus, each manufacturer is a little different.

I can put my down vest on and then put the down inner jacket on over it. Or, I can put the down inner jacket on and then put the down vest over it. Either way, nothing feels like it is getting squished by the other.

–B.G.–

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