Pocket Rocket for Winter??

[Mike M]

^ that is a good score :)

you can also often score a used stove (inverted) on gear trade (ebay, craigslist, etc)- I picked up a used windpro in great condition here on gear trade for a very good price

[Justin Tadych]

Damn, that is a good deal. Now, if only I could get Sierra Trading Post to ship that to the porkies for me so I could use it this weekend!

[Justin Tadych]

Does that Brunton stove use the same fuel as the MSR Blend (IsoButane/ Propane)? Or is is pure butane?

[Bob Gross]

HJ, if you are such a stovie… do you have a Hank Roberts Mini-Stove?

It uses a Hank Roberts butane can, which does not have a Lindahl valve.

It has a valve/seal inside a little rubber thingy on the top of the can. It seemed like state-of-the-art about 35 years ago.

–B.G.–

[caleb smith]

In January I went on my first "true" winter backpacking trip (that it to say there was 6 inches of snow covering anything). One in my group brought his whisperlite, so I decided to bring my PR along to test it. Even with temps in the mid-teens I was able to set the canister in the snow and reliably cook with it. I didn't do any "tricks" other than hold the canister in my hands for a few seconds before I attached the stove.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Does that Brunton stove use the same fuel as the MSR Blend (IsoButane/ Propane)?

Yes. The Vespa will use any standard threaded canister. MSR, Snow Peak, Jetboil, Primus, Optimus, Brunton, Glowmaster, Coleman whatever you can get. N-butane content matters less in inverted canister mode provided that there is a decent amount of propane to provide pressurization.

HJ

[Hikin’ Jim]

HJ, if you are such a stovie… do you have a Hank Roberts Mini-Stove?

It uses a Hank Roberts butane can, which does not have a Lindahl valve.

It has a valve/seal inside a little rubber thingy on the top of the can. It seemed like state-of-the-art about 35 years ago.

–B.G.–

There were at least three stoves of the Hank Roberts type that were put out under different names: Gerry, Hank Roberts, and EFI. I think EFI was the actual producer of the stoves.

As it happens, I do have one Hank Roberts stove and one Gerry stove. I have four canisters of the Hank Roberts brand fuel and three canisters of the equivalent Optimus fuel. I also have an adapter that a friend made me so that I can use standard threaded canisters.

The Gerry stove I have is really interesting: It's the infrared version. It looks a lot like the MSR Reactor — or should I say the Reactor looks a lot like the Gerry Infrared.

Eventually, the Hank Roberts and the Gerry Infrared will make it on to my blog. Sigh. So many stoves, so little time.

HJ

[Bob Gross]

"I have four canisters of the Hank Roberts brand fuel "

Yes, I think I have three or four left. I think they once cost me $2 each.

–B.G.–

[Hikin’ Jim]

In January I went on my first "true" winter backpacking trip (that it to say there was 6 inches of snow covering anything). One in my group brought his whisperlite, so I decided to bring my PR along to test it. Even with temps in the mid-teens I was able to set the canister in the snow and reliably cook with it. I didn't do any "tricks" other than hold the canister in my hands for a few seconds before I attached the stove.

Very cool.

May I ask what brand of canister you were using? And was it a fresh canister?

I usually think of 20F as a good limit for upright canister use, but then I like to leave a bit of a margin for error. One thing that you did, perhaps without realizing it, was warm the canister vis a vis the surrounding air by placing it in the snow. Even if the air temp is 15F, the snow temp will still be 32F. Perhaps without realizing it, you were employing a means to keep the canister warmer than it might otherwise be. Depending on the snow conditions (wet vs. dry vs. icy), snow can be a means of keeping the canister warm. I'd rather use a pan of warm or at least liquid water, but snow will work, particularly if you have a good isobutane and propane mix.

HJ

[Bob Gross]

"Even if the air temp is 15F, the snow temp will still be 32F."

That is not necessarily true.

If snow falls during a cold storm, it might be significantly colder than 32 F. The snow surface tends to adapt to something close to the air temperature.

Once you put one or two humans in a snow cave, its air space tends to adapt to something close to 32 F, but that is a completely different discussion.

–B.G.–

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jim

> Even if the air temp is 15F, the snow temp will still be 32F.
Sorry, but NO.
The snow WILL drop to the ambient temperature over time. Laws of physics and all that. Nothing magic.
So is the snow/ice on the plateau in the middle of the Antarctic at -50 C? Very likely!

Cheers

[Hikin’ Jim]

OK, at the risk of digging myself in deeper here, but in my experience if I bury a bottle of water in snow, the water will freeze less than if I had left the water on top of the snow overnight. The snow is acting at an insulator, is it not? Am I describing a special circumstance here? Air temperatures in which I've done this have all been in the 0F – 32F range.

In the same manner, I'm thinking that snow would insulate a gas canister, keeping it warmer than the surrounding air — assuming that the canister started out warmer than the surrounding air.

I see what you mean that the snow won't stay at 32F, and ice certainly won't either. When two substances come into contact, temperatures equalize. Not sure what I was thinking there. (embarrassed look)

HJ

[Bob Gross]

Jim, I think your thinking has been slanted toward the warmer end of that 0 F – 32 F range. As you get colder and colder, things work rather differently.

Your bottle-burying trick will work as you predict IF the snow temperature is toward the warmer end. I've done it many times when the snow is warmer.

Roger and I don't want to have to repeal the Laws of Physics on you.

–B.G.–

[Hikin’ Jim]

OK, what may be going on is that during the day, if the temps are comparitively mild, say 30F, the snow temp may well equalize with the air temp. Overnight, let's say the low goes down to 15F. The snow, having a lot of air space and a lot of mass (mass relative to air) will tend to retain more heat, staying above 20F, maybe even 25F. It would make sense that a water bottle buried in the snow would freeze less than a bottle left exposed. At least I think that's what's going on. It would make sense that if the snow were really really cold, 0F or lower, then the "bury the bottle in the snow trick" wouldn't work very well. I guess living in California has made me a little sloppy on my cold weather water protocol.

Back to the orginal issue, an upright canister stove working reasonably well at 15F: Assuming that the temp was truly 15F, it still isn't out of the question of an upright stove to work OK, particularly if the canister were new, the mix good, the starting canister temp reasonably high, and the cooking time relatively short. Still, I would think 15F to be cutting it pretty fine if one were planning on temps around 15F. Isobutane liquefies at 11F if I recall correctly. The canister temp will drop as one vaporizes gas as one cooks. You've got only 4 degrees F margin. Pretty tight.

HJ

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jim

Yep, you got it. Down a foot or so the snow will average out the daytime and night-time temperatures.

Me, I put the upright stoves away when it gets near freezing. Why takes risks?

Notable exception: when brown rings form and it gets colder than expected. Then I use the plate of water trick.

Cheers

[Justin Tadych]

40% off today. You can pick it up for $32.97 on STP. Not that's a cheap canister stove that will do inverted. Jim, thanks for catching that!

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hey, Justin,

How did your trip go?

HJ

[Justin Tadych]

The trip was great. Little disappointed with the snowshoeing as two days prior to arrival the Porkies experiences some pretty warm temps (40's). By the time we got there the temps were in the 20's during the day for the most part and low teens at night, albeit one day was closer to 0 with wind chill (complete guess though). So, there was a lot of ice which really didn't make for great snowshoeing. Other than that it was great to get away for a couple days.

As far as the pocket rocket… I was able to keep it going the first two days/nights pretty good by just keeping it in my pack or sleeping bag. By second night though I could tell that it was not at optimal performance. By the third night I didn't want to mess with it so i just boiled snow with my buddies stove. I believe I could have gotten away with using the pocket rocket the entire time, but I would have spent more time trying to keep the fuel warm / boiling snow, cooking, etc than enjoying the overall trip. I went ahead and ordered that Brunton stove from STP before I left and it was sitting on my doorstep when i got home. Not quiet sure how to upload pics yet, but when I figure it out Ill try and add a couple.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Sounds like a good trip (although ice does kinda suck).

Yeah, your experience with the PR sounds typical. The more days you're out, the less propane is left in the mix in your canister because the propane burns off faster. The less propane, the less vapor pressure. The less vapor pressure, the less power your stove has. After a while it just gets to be a hassle, and why do it if you've got another option like the Vesta?

I'd be interested in hearing about your experience with the Vesta when you get a chance to use it.

Regarding photos, I have a gmail account. Gmail comes with free space (Picasaweb) that I upload photos to. I then just insert a link here.

HJ

[Bob Gross]

If you must keep your Pocket Rocket running during cold weather, use a small candle to pre-warm the canister. In general, they say that you should never let a canister get too warm to hold in your hand. I would extend that to state that you should never heat one of the canister seams. However, if you apply candle flame to the broad base surface, it easily warms the canister without creating an explosion hazard.

In the old days, cross country skiers heading across the Sierra Nevada in winter would carry a butane stove that was rigged for hanging within the tent. So, the bottom surface was about 24 inches off the floor. On a cold morning, the skier who was sleeping in the middle would have to hold the candle in position for a minute or two until the whole thing worked. Also note that the sleeping bag in the middle got everything slopped onto it. Otherwise, that is the warmest position.

–B.G.–

[Hikin’ Jim]

Yeah, if you're careful, I guess a candle would work pretty well — provided that you were in a tent or something. Outside, candles blow out pretty quick.

Just took delivery of a Brunton Vesta Stove from Sierra Trading Post. $32.97 with a coupon. For a stove capable of doing inverted canister operation! Cheap!

Looks really nice just from looking it over. Haven't fired it yet. The stove's connector rotates freely, so inverting the canister is as smooth as silk.

HJ

[Bob Gross]

Vesta does 2 minutes 45 seconds to boil one liter?

That's pretty impressive.

–B.G.–

[Hikin’ Jim]

Well, we'll see. Manufacturers claim a lot of things.

Taking it out of the box last night, I was reasonably impressed with it's manufacturing quality. The fact that the connector rotates so easily almost makes it seem like they intended the stove for inverted canister use.

One nice thing about Sierra Trading post is that they threw in a Primus windscreen. For free. They hadn't even mentioned it in the write up, but there it was when I opened the box. Pretty nice for a price less than the MSRP of a Pocket Rocket.

HJ

[Justin Tadych]

Jim – I got the windscreen along with the stove as well from STP… which i was not expecting but was much appreciated!!! It will be awhile before I get to use my new toy, so if you write up a blog post on it I would be very interested in seeing cook time.

Cheers
-Justin

[Hikin’ Jim]

If I get a chance, I'll try to do some kind of write up.

I don't usually try to consider "cook" times unless there's something exceptional going on. There's just so much variability in terms of wind speed, air temperature, water temperature, fullness of the canister, pot used, etc. I'm not sure how applicable my numbers would be to someone under different conditions using different cookware etc.

HJ

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