G4 pack questions

[Dwight Shackelford]

I’ve run some shock cord through them and used one of those little chord locks (like on the top opening, but the shock cord is not going to tie it in tight.

I’ve got the back seam unsewn on one side, and will start on the other. Then I’ll do some major rework.

I might have said this already, but I’m thinking of putting the pad in a sleeve that attaches with some side release buckles, or at least the top end. Then I want to put a hydration sleeve between the pad and the back of the pack. Not sure how comfortable that will be, but, if it doesn’t work, I just won’t put anything in there.

I’m also going to put some real compression straps on the side seams, with some side-release buckles and adjustable length.

This thing is my prototype anyway. This is how I learn.

Dwight

[Carey Parks]

Hey Dwight, when I was packing for the trip to Publix earlier today I noticed that the elastic closure (I made the original closure not the roll top) pulls the top back toward the ice ax loop. So I ran it forward, down in front of the back pad and under the pack to the loop. This worked because the pack was full and only the cord went down my back. I didn’t feel a thing, and the pack rode much better this time. I did tie the side loops in pairs with bits of 550 line too.

Going to the store, counting the water bottle hanging off the right side shoulder strap at the waist belt, the pack weighed 24.5 pounds. Returning with a gallon of milk and some lunch meat sitting on top just inside the expansion collar and a can of chicken bullion in one side pocket it weighed 35 lbs. But having the elastic pulling the top forward really seemed to help. I wouldn’t want to carry 35 lbs in that pack the way it fits me as a lot of the weight was on my shoulders. But if the elastic were pulling backwards it never would have worked.

When I was loading the milk, I noticed that the seam at the top closure was comming apart and only a couple threads of the bar tack was holding the seam together. I’m going to reinforce the seam with a but of nylon spanning the seam to keep it from splitting.

[Carey Parks]

Oh yeah, regarding your sleeve idea, have you thought about just sewing one piece of nylon across the back, seaming the sides and bottom so you can slide the pad in from the top? Would be less material and maybe less figity. You could still put the pocket for the bladder behind the pad.

[Benjamin Smith]

Carey,

I’m not sure I understand it myself, but I’ve also noticed that my packs carry better if the closure pulls the pack in towards my shoulders rather than out away from me. Theoretically, either method should cinch things toward the middle, leaving the pack’s horizontal COG in about the same place. BUT, I made one pack with a closure strap like the Golite Gust, and it carried much better when the strap tugged the far side of the pack in towards my shoulders.

Ben

[Dwight Shackelford]

I did think about that, but getting the pad in and out would be a slight hassle with the shoulder straps there. Not insurmountable for sure, just might have to lay the pack down to do it.

Also, you might have to get to pad out to get a full bladder into the pocket.

I’ve also been thinking about a divider in the bottom of the pack, to protect the sleeping bag, etc, from getting squashed. Maybe a velcro thing to hold it in place.

On a previous note, I just saw something, maybe on the antigravitygear.com site, of a backpack that had a strap that came probably from the waist belt area, down along the bottom of the pack, up the front of the pack, and then terminated at a buckle attached to the little hood/fanny pack on that particular model. That was to take the slack out of the bottom of the pack in cases like we’re talking about. Of course, you’d need a hood, or something to attach it to at the top.

Joe Bob says check it out. ;-)

[Carey Parks]

I think the compression loops and a non-elastic tie will do the trick to keep the soft goods from being compressed. I loaded my bag in the bottom, then clothes and then my hammock (in a snake skin not a sack) and that filled it to the lower compression point.

I put my kitchen in next, then food and last my espresso maker. I put my poncho in one side pocket and my camp towel etc on the other and tied the lower compression loops.

This locked the kitchen and food in place, making a plug that kept everything else up too. I tied the upper loops as well and things carried better.

I thing the strap pulling forward works because it squishes the part of the pack that it passes over wanting to make the pack into a “C” but the stuff inside doesn’t want that to happen so it just warps it a little. That’s all I need to put the weight where I want it.

If only the torso were the right length for me…

[Dwight Shackelford]

Is it too short for you? How tall are you?

I was thinking about lengthening the distance between the waist belt and the shoulder straps too, to get that load off the shoulders. However, from my waist to the top of my shoulders is 21″, and that distance on the pack is a couple of inches more than that, so, I think, getting some structure in that bag is going to be more of a solution than moving the anchor points.

I’m afraid things would just bow out more if I moved them further apart.

[Carey Parks]

I’m 5′ 11-3/4″, have not measured waist to shoulder, but on my Kelty I normally tighten the waist belt first to put the load on there and then snug the shoulders to secure the load. This pack, without as much frame, probably won’t support the weight on the hips like that. Many UL packs don’t even have a waist belt. The thinking is that you don’t want much weight and what you do have you want up high. So it should be carried on the shoulders. If the straps are too low, once you load the shoulders the waist will be too high and vice versa.

From the photo a few posts ago you can see the pack torso looks longer than mine. At least that’s how I look at it.

I’ll ask at GG how best to snug up the pack. The user manual says waist first then shoulders, but I gotta wonder if that’s true with a “soft” pack. I know it works when there’s something to transfer the weight to one’s hips.

[Glen Van Peski]

I’m impressed by the job you guys are doing. It’s been awhile since I made a G4, but we did make them for brief time with the pad holder a solid piece of mesh opening at the top. My reasoning was that the shoulder straps would keep the pad from sliding out. This proved NOT to be the case, so we abandonned that configuration. If you had some velcro closures to keep it in, it might work. Best bet is probably to make larger pad holder pieces. As long as you have 8 – 10 inches or so between them you should be able to be the pad in.

Another thing that may be helpful is to order a G4 to look at, even though they evolved somewhat since the instructions were posted. You can keep it around to review while you’re making yours, then return it for a refund. You’re out the postage, but it might be money well spent. Don’t worry about the 30 days, as long as you return it within 3 – 4 months it won’t be a problem.

Lastly, I apologize for errors in the instructions. Someone years ago did a detailed correction list, but when I finally had some time to correct them, I couldn’t find the list. If someone wants to put one together, I can revise it, no guarantee on how quickly, time is at a premium right now. Revising instructions is easy, diagrams is hard. Roy “Trail Dad” Robinson did the current ones, someone besides me would need to figure out any additional ones.

PS changes to the shoulder strap waist belt attachment points made after the instructions were made were a BIG improvement on how they carry. Also, the G4 is too big (which it will be at some point if not when you first make it), consider taking an inch or two off the depth next time you make one.

Again, congrats on the successful sewing from the obtuse directions!

–Glen

–Glen

[Carey Parks]

Hi Glen,

Thanks for the encouragement, and the offer to use a current pack as a model. As I’ve just finished my pack I HOPE I won’t need another one for a little while, but when I do it would be nice to have the revised suspension system. So…

Can I offer to help you revise the instructions?

If various pieces of the pack were made out of material of various colors I think photographs might be better than diagrams in a lot of cases, and easier to come by too. Some diagrams would still be useful, but I got a lot of help from Dwight’s photos.

I would be pleased to give something back to the community that has selflessly given so much to so many DIY backpackers. Working on the “official” instructions would be much more useful that simply posting changes or something.

Cheers,

Carey

[Glen Van Peski]

Carey –

Any help would be appreciated. At one point I spent a day sewing a pack while a guy took photos, but I never ended up getting the photos. As long as we can keep the file sizes down, photos are a good idea, especially with contrasting colors. How to proceed… you want me to just email you the Word file for your annotations/corrections? I can check in with Kay at Quest, it sounds like they may have some comments also.

–Glen

[Carey Parks]

Sure, let’s go! The more input the better. I know Dwight has some notes, and he might want to get involved as well. If GG has any records of folks who have built G4’s and can e-mail them for commets or if you can post a “call for comments” on your GG site somewhere or Kay can, that might get some of the past comments to surface again.

There will no doubt be a number of mods that we can include as you did with the roll top.

I’d also like to include some guidelines for sizing the pack to the individual. What’s the point of a custom made pack if it doesn’t have a custom fit?

[Glen Van Peski]

Carey –

Maybe we can put something out in the next GG newsletter asking for comments. Would you like to be the receiver of comments? We could have people send them to you directly, or just forward them ourselves. We don’t have records of people who have made G4s, because we don’t have any way of knowing who gets the pattern from Quest or downloads the instructions.

–Glen

[Carey Parks]

I can take the comments directly if you like. I can include an arcive of the comments in what I return to you.

[Dwight Shackelford]

I’d be glad to help too, though I’m too swamped right now to take on anything big.

My concern on my review of the pattern and instructions is that I’ve misinterpreted the use of something, like the lashing loops, and reinterpreted their placement. This was my first outdoor gear project EVER, so I didn’t really know what was coming next or why.

The other thing would be whether my configuration of the shoulder straps works, taking into consideration your original intent.

One thing I could do easily is create a Yahoo discussion group specifically for the purpose of rehashing the instructions, etc, and getting input from people. In this way, everyone could see the comments, and Carey would probably have a much easier time of pulling some final composite together. Photos could be posted there too, etc.

I too appreciate what you did, and it was a great learning experience for me. And now I feel a bit more free to experiment myself, given the basis that you provided for us. Thanks.

Dwight
Dwight

[Carey Parks]

Great idea Dwight. I hope I didn’t usurp your project here. Lemme know and you can have it back if you like.

[Dwight Shackelford]

No, no problem. This is a communal thing. You can take the ball and run and if you need help just ask.

What to call the Yahoo group?

G4-Pack-Builders?
G4-Builders?
G4-Recovery-Group? ;-)
G4-Gee-wiz?

[Glen Van Peski]

We may want to have a goal of first just cleaning up the instructions as is. Then we could add modifications or improvements… because once we start down that road, there’s no end! At some point someone will have to establish a cutoff and finish up, or the improvements and modifications will have no end! I know of at least a couple people who have already posted instructions with improved packs based loosely on the G4.

–Glen

[Dwight Shackelford]

Ok, well let me know how yall want to proceed. If the Yahoo group is premature, we can hold off. Just figured it would be a way for everyone to see what’s being contributed and jog people’s memories. But I think you are right that it could just develop into many parallel or divergent threads.

Let me know. My notes and photos are available for any who ask. I have a few more than what I put on the BackPackGearTest.org site.

[Glen Van Peski]

I’ll let Carey steer this thing and make the call on the Yahoo Group, though I agree seems like a good way to go. I’m just not able to spend any time moderating, etc. I will commit to getting revised instructions on the website in MS Word and pdf form, and getting new ones to Kay. If someone can give me SMALL changes to the pattern, I would consider making those also.

–Glen

[Carey Parks]

Dwight & Glen,

Let’s get the Yahoo group going, and collect input there. Glen is right that the purpose of the instruction clean up is to correct and clarify the basic pack (but that basic pack should include the new suspension.)

I think I would like to expand the “user manual” portion a little as well, including more of the how to use it properly info.

After that, the Yahoo group (or perhaps a different forum if one suits) could be the repository for people’s modifications and owner reports. It would be a living resource as opposed to the static instructions.

For example:

What blew out and why?

What happens when you build a G4 with that new even lighter than silnylon stuff I can’t remember the name of?

What kind of mesh do I have to use for the pockets and pad holders, and what happens if I don’t?

You get the idea.

[Dwight Shackelford]

Ok, I’ll create the Yahoo group. I’ll just call it G4-Pack, unless something is called that already. I can moderate it. Not much to that. I moderate several groups already. Biggest problem is keeping spam out. People usually play nice with each other.

[Dwight Shackelford]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G4-Pack/

[Dwight Shackelford]

Glen,

You know, Quest is working on their own rehash of the instructions, pattern, etc. Not sure what your agreement with them is, or whether we’re doing parallel efforts needlessly. Might want to check that out and let us know.

If need be, I might be able to do some graphics, but photos are much quicker.

Dwight

[Dwight Shackelford]

There’s only two small things I can think of on the pattern changes. One would be to include a couple of more dimensions for the shoulder strap. I was not able to do it justice just from the dimensions shown. The other change would be the diagrams that show the positioning of the shoulder strap. I’m thinking the pattern was used for the Scout backpack, as I see the same shoulder strap positioning on that pack. The pattern does not match the pattern in your instructions.

I guess one other thing would be whether cutting the tab for the shoulder straps and waist belts is necessary.

Dwight

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