1lb Survival/First Aid kit for scrutiny

[Jay McCombs]

you can only be sued if you are on duty. Otherwise you have no required duty to act. You can initiate care and terminate care if continuing care puts you in danger, be it real or perceived. I would never do mouth to mouth w/o a barrier. That doesn’t make me a bad or negligent person.

Along the same lines I’d probably never do CPR in the backcountry because I realize its not going to do anything.

[Dale Wambaugh]

Yes, most states have aGood Samaritan law, so you might get sued, but they probably won’t win.

99% of my hiking is with family and that tends to change your perspective.

As to SAR response, they do a great job and the services in my area are great, but you need to be in radio/phone contact to be effective; otherwise someone has to hoof it out to call for help. If my heart stops, I would think I would be pretty dead. If I fell in cold water and drowned and was out for a couple minutes, I would appreciate a few jump-start breaths.

If someone is really bleeding and propulsive vomitting, you’re gonna get some on you. Most parents have been there and have the (stained) tee shirt. With a medical professional who is being exposed on a daily basis, it is aw that they protect themselves and the law of averages says they should too.

[Summit CO]

“Your talking plenty about stabalizing people and so on and so forth… If someone is bleeding so bad they cant wait 30 minutes for SAR to come pick them up, then they have bigger problems than keeping their t-shirts clean and in one piece.“

If you think you can call SAR on your cellphone, and they can get there and start providing care all within 30 minutes, or even an hour of the accident, I posit that you are extremely close to civilization and/or (probably and) are in an area blessed with helicopters (and the whether is right/they aren’t busy) and a very very good SAR team as well as cellphone coverage (and not in a valley). (I’m lucky, about 50% of my regular play area has excellent radio/cell coverage served by the best SAR team and helicopter service I know of)

However, a little bit of tools in your kit and you can really make a difference in bleeding control. I can do a lot more to save someone (or myself) with hemostatic bandages, 3x3s, or pressure bandages than with a down jacket or a polypro top (which I/they might need for warmth). Proper technique is key, of course (pressure points, elevation, etc).

But then weigh the likelihood of such trauma… are you scrambling/climbing and traveling through exposure or is the biggest danger tripping over a log, cutting yourself, or a freak animal attack?

As you said, my kit is oriented toward my higher trauma risk activies.

“if someone is solo and not breathing, they are NOT going to be effecting “self rescue” anytime soon.“

Yes, that is because they are dead. :-P

All BSI is solely for protecting one’s self while providing care to others.

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I think all the other points were effectively addressed by others.

[Eric Noble]

This might be slightly off topic. I was listening to a podcast with Shana Tarter of the Wilderness Medicine Institute. Towards the end, she listed the five items she would carry in a first aid kit, if she were limited to 5. I will listed them here:

Gloves
1.5″ or 2″ Athletic Tape
Tylenol, or Ibuprofin
Needle Nose Irrigation Syringe
Micro-thin dressing (OpSite, TegaDerm)

I am sure her first aid kit is more extensive than 5 items. My current store bought kit only has 2 items on her list, the athletic tape and the drugs. It got me thinking that I should put a lot more thought into my kit. By the way, there are a lot of great podcasts at http://www.practicalbackpacking.com

[J R]

You seem to miss the point Summit.

I was being factious by saying 30 minutes.
Hell, I would be factious if I said 30 hours for some locales.

My point was more directed to the fact that if your “first aid” has degenerated to the point that you must call SAR to rescue you, you have bigger problems than an ULTRALIGHT first aid kit can handle, and in that sort of situation, the solution is to sacrifice a little comfort and press non-FAK items into FAK roles.

I dont quite get where you made the illogical leap from cutting the leg off of some long underwear, or a strip of shirt material off the hem, and using it for an improvised bandaged… and somehow turned that into “a down jacket” or an entire polypro top… but whatever, maybe thats what you got?

BTW, I didnt say anything about your “higher trauma risk activities”. Maybe thats what you read, but thats not what I said. Risk is subjective. Solo changes dynamics. Hike your own hike.

[Bill Fornshell]

This might seem mean but my 1st Aid Kit is for my needs not yours.

I am not out in the woods to play doctor. If I come upon you hurt on the trail I will get out your 1st Aid Kit and do everything I can to help you. If you happen to be bleeding a lot I will use some part of you cloths or other stuff to stop or control your bleeding, I know how to do that.

If you die in my care I will check out your gear to see if you have anything good and help myself to it (house calls in the woods cost a lot). After all the local animals will just chew it up if I don’t take it. I will wrap you up in your stuff (what ever is left) and mark the spot and report it next time I see the right person or whenever I get to the next town. I don’t drag dead bodies out of the woods.

So how much of this is the way I really feel. The true part is that my 1st Aid Kit is for my needs not yours. If you don’t take the responsibly for your 1st Aid needs don’t expect me to give you mine.

This all changes if we are on a planned hike together or I am a hike leader. The 1st Aid Kit then is something (we/group) needs and what we take needs to be decided as a group even if it is just two of us. I have been on large group hikes where we even had one or more doctors along. That was nice as they even checked everyones feet each day for the first sign of problems.

[David Olsen]

In case some missed it in all the banter, CPR
is very useful for some situations such
as cold water drownings and lightening strikes.
There is a decent probability you can save a
life.

I have had one friend brought back after
a strike hit a party climbing on a tower in Utah,
and also a high school teacher who brought back
a drowning person with back compressions
while floating on a log raft.

A local ER doc who does winter SAR with us
summed it up- most times CPR won’t help
so don’t feel bad if it doesn’t work, but in
select situations it can be a wonderful tool.

I would add, at least get the A (open the airway)
in the ABC’s if you do nothing else.

[J R]

I dont think anyone doubts the usefulness of CPR, and really, some of those thin barriers are too light not to at least consider carrying them…

[Chris Jackson]

Here’s what one paramedic suggests.

[Summit CO]

Eric – Nice find there with that link! Thank you! To think, all the times I put tegaderm on my IV start sites I never really thought about it. That podcast is definately going to have me looking into it. Light bandages that last longer and need to be changed less means I need to carry less bandaids and blister control!

Chris – I think that site has a nice list for a FAK!

JR – I’m not trying to be disrespectfull. In fact, I don’t actually disagree with you on much except for the posibility of having the right (light) tools in your kit can, in many situations, really make a difference in stabilizing a patient until SAR can arrive, especially with a bleeder. For example actcel hemostatic 4x4s, though pricy at $12ea (4x2s $6), really can make a difference in stopping real bleeding far more quickly than pressure dressings/gauze alone, much less improvised bandages from clothing. In truth my trauma bandaging section of my kit is only about .7oz (minus the coban).

[Dale Wambaugh]

“I don’t drag dead bodies out of the woods.”

First Hiker: “Is he dead?”
Second Hiker: “Sure looks like it”
First hiker: “Roll him over and we’ll take the air mattress.
Second hiker: “Okay, but I get the shoes…”

[Mike Storesund]

Summit, You have a real nice list, but Holy Cow! A box of 20 4×4 ActCel Hemostatic Gauze costs $240 and a box of 20 2×4 ActCel Hemostatic Gauze costs $180! I like that it expands to 3-4 times its original size when coming into contact with the blood and that converts to a gel that dissolves into glucose and saline over a 1-2 week period, but dang… those are some expensive FAK components.

[Summit CO]

Yes, ActCels are very expensive. It is possible to buy $12 singles from some online stores. Nobody needs to buy a $240 box unless it is a groub buy! The shelf life of these things is 5years.

Their purpose isn’t for every scrape and cut. They are for helping to rapidly stopping bad bleeds, and in a light kit, stopping bleeds that are sufficiently bad that it might use up most or all of your other gauze/bandaging produces when using conventional bleeding control methods.

Other products that can be considered are the QuickClot Sponge and TraumaDex, but I believe the ActCel is far easier to use, requires essentially no training, and has virtually no risk of complications. The HemCon Bandage is very similar to the ActCel. It is what the US Military uses. However, they are $150 PER BANDAGE. Makes the ActCel seem like a good deal… Still certainly not cheap.

[joseph daluz]

I actually tried to use a modified slit-in-a-finger-exam-glove as a barrier device on a CPR dummy in ACLS class, it didn’t work for me. The wrist portion of the glove didn’t have a wide enough opening and well… it just didn’t work that well

[Eric Noble]

Joseph, thanks for trying this and reporting back.

[Eric Noble]

And Dale… I laugh every time I come back to this thread and see your last post.

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