Cuben sleep system

[Lynn Tramper]

Is it a quilt?
Is it a top bag?
Is it a hoodless and zipperless sleeping bag?

Weight, 12.7oz/360g
Rolled size 5" x 15" /13 x 40cm
Loft height !2.3"/5.8cm
Length 72"
Shoulder width 48"
Foot width 32"

It rolls into a really small package

It's a bit slower to loft, but gets there in the end. Here it's shown in "quilt" mode.

It had snaps and velcro so the footbox can be configured in a number of ways. Here it's configured in top bag mode with max ventilation at the feet.

Here it's closed up, but still has a small hole for ventilation

But it also has an alternative drawstring ~ 9 inches from the bottom. This is used in windy or winter mode to form a down lined foot pocket.

Here is the pocket…very cozy. The bag needed to be made extra long to accomplish this, but no more cold feet :)

The 'wings' can be joined at variable width across the bottom to form it into a wind and water tight top bag. The girth can be adjusted from the full 48" up to 76' at the shoulder while still maintaining a draft tight fit that can easily be opened to ventilate.

Here it is in full storm mode with a really lofty cuben/down balaclava.

Tim Marshall mad the quilt exactly to my specs, and did a great job. I've slept in it for two weeks now, and it's a solid sleep system. The hard part is keeping the cats off it!

I made the balaclava which is why it looks dirty. the down I used was mixed whites and grey while Tim's down was pure white.

The quilt has 9oz of fill, which really lofts it well. there are no real cold spots formed due to lack of down, as you can maybe see in this photo taken in front of a sunny window so you can see all the down:

[Keegan Wagner]

Sweet! I'm envious as I don't have the money for such a fabulous piece of gear :( Oh and do you get any condensation?

[Lynn Tramper]

"Oh and do you get any condensation?"

Not yet, but it hasn't been cold enough that I've needed to completely cinch myself in. As long as there is SOME ventilation it seems to cope just fine. I'm the kinda person that wakes and adjusts my covers before I get so hot I sweat, so this may not suit people who sleep like the dead!

One down side I forgot to mention the fabric is pretty noisy. It's not a problem when I'm by myself, but it could drive a tent partner crazy if you toss and turn a lot…

[Colin Krusor]

Lynn, you mentioned that it is "wind and water tight." Is it actually water tight? Is it sewn or glued together? If there are needle holes in the outer shell, they will be situated at the lowest loft points, where any water falling on the quilt would pool. This water might drain through the needle holes into the down, and because there is no "skunk stripe," the down would take weeks to dry. It seems to me that this quilt is far from "water tight" if it has been sewn, and in fact one might have to be very careful about keeping it dry. I find the idea of a down quilt that water can get into but not out of somewhat concerning. Are there needle holes in the outer shell? Is there a hidden breathable patch for drying?

[Lynn Tramper]

The seams are not sealed, so it's not truly water tight, but I've been trialling it for over two weeks now and weigh it each morning. So far it hasn't gained any weight from perspiration on the inside. I wouldn't use it outside of a tent without a bivy bag except in an emergency, but I do intend to trial some puddles of water to see if/how much and under what conditions it may wet-out. I doubt, at this stage, that more water could get into the needle holes (accidentally) than could escape back out those same holes given adequate heat, but time will tell. It's mostly academic as I don't intend to put the bag into those conditions in the field.

Last night I slept outside, temp was down to 1c/34F. It was cold enough that by midnight I was completely bundled up in the bag (full bag mode with foot box closed). I periodically adjusted my body temp by fiddling with the balaclava but didn't need to adjust the bag. This morning, my socks were
slightly damp (I would call it more like humid), everything else was dry, and I slept warm with just a light baselayer (T-shirt for the top). I'm hoping with the addition of a light down jacket and pants that I will be able to use this system for most of my winter activities :) Very happy about that.

[obx hiker]

I really like the balaclava. Nice job!

The variable width fabric bottom is another great idea. I've bought some momentum to add a full fabic layer to my arc alpine but haven't gotten the work done yet and don't have the time or a machine to do it myself.

I thought that down needed the "skunk stripe" of breatheable fabric to help it loft and breath. And that it also might create packing and compressing problems.

But you have no such issues? or it just takes a little longer to loft up?

[Steven Evans]

Lynn,
That's a freakin' wicked setup. I like the wings you had added on there. Keep us posted on how it is working for you, I wouldn't have thought it would loft without the use of a breathable fabric. I remember when Tim and I were talking about my cuben quilt, I was nervous that even with the strip of M90 down the center, it would have issues. Great that the cuben quilt "technology" is moving forward and progressing. Tim does nice work and is such a cool guy to work with.

[Lynn Tramper]

Tim (enLIGHTenedequipment.com) is indeed a cool guy to work with. I intentionally had him add an extra ounce of down just so I wouldn't risk ruining Steve's WLQ title ;)

Cola, The quilt takes longer to loft and to compress, but not really a big deal. In fact, If we believe Richard Nisley's analysis of loft versus warmth, the quilt is probably already at max insulation after a minute or two, even if not yet fully lofted. Likewise I go slow when rolling it up as I don't want to stress the baffles too much by forcing air out under pressure. If these things, as well as the issue of drying it if it should get et inside worry you, it doesn't really weigh much more to have the Momentum stripe included, and it DOES lend a certain racing quality to the design :)

How's your WLQ working out so far Steve?

[obx hiker]

I don't know……… I kind of like the idea of having the down enclosed by a barrier material like cuben. Ought to keep it cleaner and dryer. Just wondering ( idly I confess ) how the air gets in and out??? Through the seams?

It looks really nice!

I'm adding a hammock to my gear and thinking about getting Steve to make the underquilt. Since it's outside the actual hammock ( which may very well also be cuben ) there's not really a human source of vapor. Be even better it seems to me to have the quilt relatively water-proof or at least highly water resistant. I wonder what the moisture dynamics are for such a set-up. The atmospheric humidity of the air filling the quilt would not be alterred by human transpiration. I think you're correct that whatever water got wicked in would then also wick back out when the conditions changed. It's late and I'm tired but seems pretty much ideal. Still can't figure how it inflates and deflates unless there are some holes/gaps somewhere. You oughta market those balaclavas. Help you sleep like a fench jumping lamb or something ;) Now if someone can solve the problem/puzzle of a cuben based D.A.M………….. reminds me. here's a long joke for anyone wanting a laugh .

The Dam

This is an actual letter sent to a man named Ryan DeVries regarding a pond on his property. It was sent by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Quality, State of Pennsylvania . This guy's response is hilarious, but read The State's letter before you get to the response letter.

State of Pennsylvania 's letter to Mr. DeVries:

SUBJECT: DEQ
File No.97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec 20; Lycoming County

Dear Mr. DeVries:

It has come to the attention of the Department of Environmental Quality that there has been recent unauthorized activity on the above referenced parcel of property. You have been certified as the legal landowner and/or contractor who did the following unauthorized activity:

Construction and maintenance of two wood debris dams across the outlet stream of Spring Pond.

A permit must be issued prior to the start of this type of activity.. A review of the Department's files shows that no permits have been issued Therefore, the Department has determined that this activity is in violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Pennsylvania Compiled Laws, annotated.

The Department has been informed that one or both of the dams partially failed during a recent rain event, causing debris and flooding at downstream locations.. We find that dams of this nature are inherently hazardous and cannot be permitted. The Department therefore orders you to cease and desist all activities at this location, and to restore the stream to a free-flow condition by removing all wood and brush forming the dams from the stream channel. All restoration work shall be completed no later than January 31, 2010.

Please notify this office when the restoration has been completed so that a follow-up site inspection may be scheduled by our staff. Failure to comply with this request or any further unauthorized activity on the site may result in this case being referred for elevated enforcement action..

We anticipate and would appreciate your full cooperation in this matter. Please feel free to contact me at this office if you have any questions.

Sincerely,
David L. Price
District Representative and Water Management Division.

Here is the actual response sent back by Mr. DeVries:

Re: DEQ File
No.. 97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec. 20; Lycoming County

Dear Mr..Price,

Your certified letter dated 11/17/09 has been handed to me. I am the legal landowner but not the Contractor at 2088 Dagget Lane , Trout Run, Pennsylvania .

A couple of beavers are in the (State unauthorized) process of constructing and maintaining two wood 'debris' dams across the outlet stream of my Spring Pond. While I did not pay for, authorize, nor supervise their dam project, I think they would be highly offended that you call their skillful use of natures building materials 'debris.'

I would like to challenge your department to attempt to emulate their dam project any time and/or any place you choose. I believe I can safely state there is no way you could ever match their dam skills, their dam resourcefulness, their dam ingenuity, their dam persistence, their dam determination and/or their dam work ethic.

These are the beavers/contractors you are seeking. As to your request, I do not think the beavers are aware that they must first fill out a dam permit prior to the start of this type of dam activity.

My first dam question to you is:
(1) Are you trying to discriminate against my Spring Pond Beavers, or
(2) do you require all beavers throughout this State to conform to said dam request?

If you are not discriminating against these particular beavers, through the Freedom of Information Act, I request completed copies of all those other applicable beaver dam permits that have been issued. (Perhaps we will see if there really is a dam violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Pennsylvania Compiled Laws, annotated.)

I have several dam concerns. My first dam concern is, aren't the beavers entitled to legal representation? The Spring Pond Beavers are financially destitute and are unable to pay for said representation — so the State will have to provide them with a dam lawyer.

The Department's dam concern that either one or both of the dams failed during a recent rain event, causing flooding, is proof that this is a natural occurrence, which the Department is required to protect. In other words, we should leave the Spring Pond Beavers alone rather than harassing them and calling them dam names.

If you want the damed stream 'restored' to a dam free-flow condition please contact the beavers — but if you are going to arrest them, they obviously did not pay any attention to your dam letter, they being unable to read English.

In my humble opinion, the Spring Pond Beavers have a right to build their unauthorized dams as long as the sky is blue, the grass is green and water flows downstream. They have more dam rights than I do to live and enjoy Spring Pond. If the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Protection lives up to its name, it should protect the natural resources (Beavers) and the environment (Beavers' Dams).

So, as far as the beavers and I are concerned, this dam case can be referred for more elevated enforcement action right now. Why wait until 1/31/2010? The Spring Pond Beavers may be under the dam ice by then and there will be no way for you or your dam staff to contact/harass them.

In conclusion, I would like to bring to your attention to a real environmental quality, health, problem in the area It is the bears! Bears are actually defecating in our woods. I definitely believe you should be persecuting the defecating bears and leave the beavers alone. If you are going to investigate the beaver dam, watch your dam step! The bears are not careful where they dump!

Being unable to comply with your dam request, and being unable to contact you on your dam answering machine, I am sending this response to your dam office.

THANK YOU,

RYAN DEVRIES & THE DAM BEAVERS

[Lynn Tramper]

"Just wondering ( idly I confess ) how the air gets in and out??? Through the seams?"

Definitely. Water needs bigger holes to get in and out than air, so the cuben inflates/deflates quicker than it can take on water. However, yesterday I poured a cup (250g) of water into a puddle on top of the quilt. A half hour later it had all disappeared through the seams, so water has not problem getting in eventually. Fortunately most of the water just seeped right through and out the other seam on the bottom. leaving 50g (~2oz) of water trapped inside. I squeezed another ~15 of this out, and am waiting to see how the remainder goes (and indeed IF it will go without a dryer). Note, I only did this experiment after testing a piece of cuben to make sure it wouldn't melt in the dryer, just in case!

If water entry is a real threat (and we are talking about standing puddles here, not the odd splash), then might still be best to keep the skunk stripe and seam seal the cuben parts, keeping the skunk stripe out of water's way. One idea, which was my initial plan I sent to Tim, was to terminate the skunk stripe on baffle before ache end of the quilt, as I find these areas most likely to brush up against wet stuff or collect breath condensation. This might work well for your underquilt.

"You oughta market those balaclavas. Help you sleep like a fence jumping lamb or something ;)"

They are easy to make, but I don't really want to make lots of them. I enjoy my free-time too much :)

Now a cuben DAM should be relatively easy, the trick is choosing the right weight of cuben and the best adhesive. Maybe we could employ a beaver….

[Jeff Patrick]

Awesome quilt Lynn.

It seems to me that a big benefit of the quilt would be using it like a bivy.

You mentioned testing it as such but only for use in emergencies. I'm just wondering why you had the bag made like this if not to take advantage of it?

I would seem seal the seems on the top, but not the inside seems which would allow the quilt to still get air to loft up.

If seem sealing allows it to be used instead of a bivy, then the weight will be negligible because it saves the weight of the bivy…along with the extra cost.

Do you have enough room with the flies to have it sealed up with a pad in it? I guess if not you'd also need a small groundsheet to use in bivy form.

Either way great quilt. I made a design about a week ago that is essentially the same dimensions without the wings so its good to know it works.

[Lynn Tramper]

"It seems to me that a big benefit of the quilt would be using it like a bivy."

For my use, a 'bivy' is merely something I add when it gets really drafty in a tarptent, and to keep the wet walls of a tarptent from wetting my bag when it gets really cold, or for sleeping out under the stars when the weather is fine. This quilt can do all that without actually carrying a separate bivy, plus gives me the modest heat boost of a VBL for colder weather. I wouldn't use it for sleeping in driving rain all night except in a dire emergency, and even then, keeping the head dry and and rain out would not be trivial.

You could seam seal just the top, but this would add weight, slow lofting/drying even more, and is not something I need.

"Do you have enough room with the flies to have it sealed up with a pad in it? I guess if not you'd also need a small groundsheet to use in bivy form."

At the shoulder, yes, at the foot, just…but this would be a cold way to use the quilt since there would be an un-insulated gap between the quilt and the pad.

Although I haven't taken a photo of it yet, the quilt can be attached to a pad using the same set-up I use with my WM pod pictured here:

Although hard to see, it's really just an extra strip of velcro that runs from the filled edge of the quilt to some mating strips glued to the bottom of the pad. This keeps you from rolling off the pad or exposing un-insulated parts of the quilt to cold air. Since I'm always in a tarptent, an extra ground cloth is not needed but YMMV. I think if you want to use your system as a stand-alone bivy, you would still want to carry a sepatrate bivy bag. I've made one out of cube/momentum that weighs in at less than 3oz, a totally cuben one would weigh even less and give you bombproof waterproofness without affecting loft, and it allows you to pack the wet bivy away separate from your fragile down.

This morning there was only 7 grams of water left in the quilt, and since this weekend was the first damp weather we've had since I got the quilt, I can't even be sure that 7 grams isn't just from humid air.

[Steven Evans]

Hey Lynn,
Thanks for letting me keep the WLQ title ;)

My quilt is awesome. I think I have about 15 nights on it by now, but I have to admit that I lost an "accurate" count over the winter months. I'm bringing it on my upcoming Zion trip in mid May so it'll get to do a little traveling with me.

[BlackHatGuy]

"I'm adding a hammock to my gear and thinking about getting Steve to make the underquilt. Since it's outside the actual hammock ( which may very well also be cuben ) there's not really a human source of vapor."

I've got a cuben underquilt. Took it out for the first time this weekend. It's like Lynn's in that it has no momentum stripe. It rained steadily throughout the night and into the morning — in fact we packed up in the rain. But the UQ never got wet, and it kept me more than toasty all night (had a cuben topquilt as well). It lofted just fine, and decompressed pretty quickly. I should probably follow Lynn's lead and roll it first, I just stuffed my in the stuff sack!

[Pedro Arvy]

Lynn,

These quilts seem very narrow. About the same as the Nunatak Arc Ghost which at 46" wide I found too narrow as a side sleeper. I could manage with the Arc Alpinist, but that is much wider at 55" across the shoulders. However, if the quilt was anchored under me by my sleeping pad like a top bag, this could work. I imagine that when you turn you would not take the quilt with you exposing cold air. So three questions:

1. Are you a side sleeper?

2. Am I right in my theory? A narrow bag stays put if your sleeping pad is on top of it?

3. I am interested, how low could you comfortably sleep to in your Rainbow with this bag and no additional clothing assuming a windless night?

4. If you had it made again would you add say a 1" strip of momentum down the middle to make it slightly easier to compress and loft?

[John Brochu]

Sorry Steven, I think mine has you beat at 10.4oz since I only got 1.5" of loft. It might go up for sale though because I'm not sure I can get used to the vapor barrier system.

[Steven Evans]

Sorry Steven, I think mine has you beat at 10.4oz

I knew this was going to have to happen some day. I just didn't think it would be so soon! ;)

[obx hiker]

Lynn and Doug'

Lynn I can't believe you tested the thing by pouring water on it! Thanks for that imput! Your testing and sharing just exhibits such a community spirit. The kind of stuff that makes BPL special!

Dam beavers indeed.

Doug

Thanks for that imput! Sounds like a GREAT system! Man I feel an attack of gear lust……….. must …… keep …….under control……..

Not to be a "fish-mouth" ( know-it-all) I always heard it's less damaging on down to roll it instead of stuffing it FWIW. Anyone know anything about that?

I really want to add some wings like those Lynn has to my arc alpinist. Looks like the "missing link"

[Sanad Toukhly]

Being that this quilt works like a vapor barrier, I presume you cannot wear any insulating down clothing inside the quilt?
I would think doing so would quickly wet out any down that is inside the quilt.

-Sid

[Lynn Tramper]

"Being that this quilt works like a vapor barrier, I presume you cannot wear any insulating down clothing inside the quilt?"

Sid, you just hit on my next 'experiment' I need another cold night (preferably sub-freezing) to test it, but I plan to weigh all my clothing before going to bed, then sleep with a down jacket and pants on and see how much water weight they gain overnight. My hunch is it will be different for everyone, as I am pretty good at thermoregulating while sleeping, so don't tend to sweat much. I know others don't cope as well.

"1. Are you a side sleeper?

2. Am I right in my theory? A narrow bag stays put if your sleeping pad is on top of it?

3. I am interested, how low could you comfortably sleep to in your Rainbow with this bag and no additional clothing assuming a windless night?

4. If you had it made again would you add say a 1" strip of momentum down the middle to make it slightly easier to compress and loft?"

@Peter

I am not a side sleeper, but my partner is. The dimensions of the quilt were taken directly off of our WM PODs that we both love and cherish. They work by keeping the insulated parts of the bag attached to the mats, so you can turn over without the quilt moving. There are also some down sides to this setup, mainly that you can't sit up in your bag if you are using a stiff mat. It works fine with CCF mats though. This quilt just takes the concept a little further by making the width variable (nice for layering), and the foot ventable, all while saving weight and stopping the foot from wetting out.

I don't yet know how low I can go with this quilt, but winter is on it's way here so I will be testing it in the safety of my backyard. My backyard rarely gets below ~minus 4-5 celsius though, so that would be the limit of my testing. Until I know the quilts limits I will not be taking into the field for winter testing!

If I were to make another one, I would not add a momentum strip. The quilt was back to it's original weight this morning, so the vapour clearly can get out given just plain body heat.

[BlackHatGuy]

FWIW, my topquilt has a momentum stripe, my UQ does not. I've got another topquilt on order that does not as well.

Had my hammock out this week. My UQ has 2.5" of loft, my topquilt has 2". First night got down to 50 degrees. Most of the night I had the topquilt off me completely as I was just too warm, UQ kept me quite toasty. Pulled the topquilt over me around 2 or 3 am. Only wore VBL socks and briefs. No shirt or pants.

Second night it got down to 38.5 degrees. Wore VBL socks again (I always do now) and an Icebreaker 150 shirt. Had the topquilt over me, but not 'tucked in.' Stayed toasty all night. I think around 2 or 3 I tucked the topquilt around me loosely.

While the topquilt lofts a bit quicker than the UQ, the UQ is well lofted by the time I actually climb into my hammock. After I set up the hammock, I put the topquilt in it and 'fluff' it, then lay the UQ over the top of the hammock and 'fluff' it as well. After I eat dinner I attach the UQ and hang it underneath in its normal position, well lofted by now. Works well.

Both quilts pretty much compress easily. I tend to compress slowly on purpose, but I've never had to compress slower than usual because of the lack of a momentum stripe in the UQ.

[t.darrah]

Pictures Doug? (Of the sleep system not you VB briefs)

[BlackHatGuy]

The briefs aren't VB, only the socks! And yes, that's my Prophet underneath on a small piece of Tyvek. Love that pack!

.

.

[Christopher Wilke]

n/m

[Frank Steele]

Douglas,

What hammock is that?

[Author]

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