safe working load – rope question

[Dean F.]

Well… a Munter weighs zero additional ounces… :o) Which really isn't trivial for a ULer who just wants a light rope for the occasional scramble.

I've used figure-8s a lot for rappelling, but I think I may get an ATC because they are arguably better belay devices and can still be used to rappel. Are they lighter?

[Roger Caffin]

> On longer rappels they'll horribly kink your rope if the end isn't free to
> relieve potential twisting. I used one in a canyon on a ~80' rappel and spent
> the next 15 minutes trying to untangle my rope before moving on.
Don't even think about trying to use a Figure-of-8 descender on any of my ropes. Just don't ask.

A straight-line device is fine: the ATC requires some skill, but the big Petzl rack is fine for canyons. We have a specialised Australian variant for our wet canyons, as shown here.

Cheers

[David Chenault]

Who doesn't like rope? Certainly not any gearhead I know.

I see three different answers I have to the questions posed.

For easy mountaineering and 4th-easy 5th class scrambling:
Take a class, learn to lead climb (at a gym is probably best), then climb a lot, then hire a guide to teach you to lead outside. Then go into the mountains. 10mm+ ropes are stinkin' heavy. For mostly scrambles with some simul-climbing and maybe a few short cruxes where you'll stop and belay, I'd go for a single skinny dynamic line. The leader can tie clip into a butterfly knot and lead on doubled ropes if a fall is ever likely. As for pro, that depends on the rock. Most climbs of this type in the US are on granite, which tends to be easy to protect. Take some small wiregates, lots of slings, Hexcentrics 9-7, and Stoppers 10-6. Tricams fit lots of placements, but are slow to place and more likely to fall out under rope movement. However, for easy mountaineering on limestone, the rules are different. Take the slings, nuts, maybe a Hex or two, pink and red tricams, and a .5, .75., 1, 2, and maybe 3 Camalot.

If you're canyoneering, especially in the desert SW, get a static line. The sand, sandstone, funky rap starts, and water are very abrasive. Dynamic ropes get core shots within hours. For easy routes you can get away with an 8mm tag line type rope (BD sells one), but it's better to do it right and get a canyon specific line with a tough sheath. The Bluewater Canyon Pro is the best, lightest, toughest, and most expensive. Imlay Canyon Gear sells solid 8mm cord in lengths or by the foot. To save weight, take a 100 foot length of 8mm, and a 100 foot length of 6mm accessory cord. You rap on the 8mm, use the 6mm to pull it all down. All due respect, if you can't figure that out without detail, don't do it.

A third class would be little scrambles, either in canyons or on mountains, where you don't need a proper belay or rappel, but might need a pack haul, hand line down, or chicken line up upon occasion. For this I prefer 5-80' of 1" tubular webbing. Not light, by easy to grip, and easy to tie steps in.

I concur with the aforementioned criticism of munters for rappin'. They have no place unless you're just doing a short rap or two. The weight of the ATC will be more than made up in increased speed and happiness. The new ATC guide is good at controlling speed on single skinny lines, or use two lockers and/or a biner on the leg loop for more friction.

Roger, ya'll use 10.5mm statics and caving racks for canyoning down there?! Holy poundage.

[Douglas Ray]

I perused that mountaineering book, and I guess what I'm looking for is a rope for tying in on a running belay on class 4 scrambles, and then top belaying once the leader is in place. Maybe for moving together over a snow or ice field, too. And, as I mentioned, occasional rappels in nontechnical canyons. (But not real class 5 rock climbing.)

–The above mentioned techniques are rather advanced, beyond simply leading and belaying. They require quite a bit of skill and judgment to do safely. Done wrong they will often make the situation more dangerous rather than less. I would definitely second all of the advice to take a class and/or hire a guide to teach you. You should have experience leading in the mountains and a fair bit of rock-climbing skill before you simul-climb.

As such, I guess I should take a class, and get a few basic pieces of protection. Most scrambles almost by definition have a lot of natural protection so I think I'd be well served simply with a bunch of webbing runners and a few carabiners, but a handful of chocks couldn't hurt either. Anyone have any recommendations for lightweight chocks? I kinda like the multi-purpose capabilities of the Black Diamond Hexcentric or Lowe Tri-Cam. Are they relatively light as protection goes? Or should I just get a selection of wired nuts? (Spring-loaded cams look heavy.)

I guess I'm curious about the UL view on protection. (With an emphasis that I'm not talking about technical rock climbing, and not even anything very close to vertical. In THOSE situations, since you're life is on the line in such an immediate and dramatic fashion, I'd personally say "Damn the weight!")

–The UL view on protection in the situations you mentioned is to be a good enough rock climber that you are not worried about falling and you simply free-solo. Replacing equipment with skill. This carries forward into more technical terrain as well, as the better movement skills you have the less protection that you need to use to be safe.

Well, this is all a bit premature, anyway. I have to take a class or something, first. But I like to take a while to think about such things, so I'm interested in opinions.

I'm also beginning to suspect that I'm not going to escape buying two ropes. Rappelling, I understand, is best with a static rope whereas any kind of belay or moving together requires a dynamic rope.

[Art …]

"Rappelling, I understand, is best with a static rope whereas any kind of belay or moving together requires a dynamic rope."

In the quote above, I hope you're not talking about "moving together" while climbing rock, even easy low angle rock. This is called Simulclimbing and is extremely dangerous even for very experienced rock climbers. If you need a rope on rock … set up belays and move one at a time.

Sometimes a rope is the Illusion of Safety and not safety itself.

[Derek Goffin]

I have been reading this thread without contributing because I know very little about rock climbing. My partner Ellie and I have done extensive high level walking in Scotland, Winter and Summer and Peru and the Pyrenees and some scrambling only up to class 1. This is a British classification I do not know if it translates. Class 1 should not need a rope at all. We do not own any equipment beyond ice axe and crampons. I have abseiled under instruction and seconded on a roped climb.
We are booked to go walking along ridges in the Atlas mountains in April on ridges and walkers peaks like Toubkal. On some of the ridges there are easy scrambling. Easy scrambling is a moveable feast. We are already carrying lightweight camping gear, ice axes and crampons and starting with 9 days dry food. I think I could imagine carrying an extra pound of scrambling gear. What would be the best stuff to extend our possibilities? For half a pound what would you take? or 2 pounds?
I imagine the first thing that would help would be a light rope/tape to lower our rucksacks, or haul our rucksacks up. Perhaps for the same weight and strength a tape is easier on the hands, although we will have some gloves with us. All the rope lengths mentioned so far in this thread sound very long for the sort of timid next step I think we are taking. 10 metres would allow a 5 metre lower and retrieval.
The next might be a security rope to descend a scramble, I imagine that might involve anchoring equipment, tape slings, carabiners , and perhaps a belay device to work with the chosen rope/tape. As has been metioned then you might need a thin cord to allow you to retrieve the rope from below. A piece of tape or rope that could be made into a harness/swiss seat? for one or both of us? That would invove some carabiners?
Similar equipment would allow the more timid of us safer climbing once one of us had scrambled up and belayed at the top.
Improving safety for that lead scramble/climb seems to need different equipment, would that weigh more?
For the weight of some pieces of cord we would have more options in emergency prussic loops for safety, extra friction in descent and I suppose for climbing a rope if that was needed. A sharp knife we already carry.
That is the sort of thing that I imagine would extend our range and security. I intend to get some gear for the trip, what anecdotes can people tell me before I decide what to get?

[Douglas Ray]

I think the idea of carrying a little bit of cord to lower and haul packs has merit, and it is the only step you can take that will weigh less than a pound. Small cord is really hard to handle for this sort of thing, you might see if you can find 1/2 in (12mm) tubular webbing. It's sometimes called aid climbers tie-off webbing in climbing shops. Probably go to a store and handle stuff and see what you think you can hold onto while lowering or raising a pack.

Really, I'm of the opinion that going beyond that into carrying a rope of some sort that people can rappel on and belay with is probably not a good idea if you don't have much climbing experience, unless you can have some one teach you specifically about how to do what you are thinking of doing.

Building safe anchors to rappel from or belay someone below you is sometimes rather tricky, and judging how much an anchor will hold just takes experience to learn. Sometimes using a rope at all makes things more hazardous due to the rope creating rock-fall. And sometimes there is no way to really use the rope for protection, but you will end up tied into it anyway, and in that cases it increases the risk. As noted in the post above, a rope can just be the illusion of safety.

Unless there is someone in the group who really understands safety systems, I like to approach scrambling with the mindset that all you have is hands and feet (or crampons and an axe) and you cannot fall under any circumstances. Most difficult spots on a scrambling rout can be dealt with best by backing off and looking for an easier way, because generally there is one.

The other piece of gear I'd recommend considering for your trip is a light helmet, as rockfall can be an issue scrambling, particularly if there are other people above you.

[Paul Marvin]

I read this thread from start to finish and there are some interesting points made. I have a few points of my own to make and a question.

In the 1970's I often used a munter for belay and rappel and never had a problem with rope twising, however I used an Edilrid 11.5 mm or whatever was the standard of the day.

Technology moves on and finally gear is getting smaller and lighter, that not withstaning ropes are thinner today and may not be munter friendly.

One poster suggested taking along a piece of webbing or rope to make a swiss seat. Good idea but they are a pain to wear and to tie unless you do it regularily. Camp makes an Alp 95 harness that weighs in at 4 oz! So if it is for occaional use and not for hanging in all day that maybe an alternative for weight weenies.

Now for my questions:

1. Does anybody have comments re the munter or double munter on thin ropes for a bail out rap if you are in a jam.

2. What is the thinest static rope any sane person would use for an emergency rappel. Not doubled just using a single strand. I'd throw it away after use as I'm thinking minamlist travel.

Regards to All,

Paul

[Bob Gross]

Call me crazy if you wish. 5mm kernmantle rope. But then it is carried in a canvas bag that can serve to smooth that first top edge you have to go over.

–B.G.–

[James holden]

since you are talking about single line rappels

1. i would recommend not using a normal munter for high angle single line rappels for thin ropes unless you use a monster munter … if you do decide to use a munter, make sure you tie a prussic underneath

http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/pdfs/ImprovBrakes.pdf

2. i wouldnt single line rap off anything les than a 7mm static if i can help it … if i had to carry something around id carry an 8mm line just to be safe … single strand means yr leaving the strand and the anchor, thinner line means more chance of it being cut when loaded over an edge

perhaps its best to ask what is yr intended application?

either way i would recommend a 7.5 mm+ line and a verso for 2 oz and 25$

http://www.backcountry.com/petzl-verso-belay-device?avad=1768_bfdf84d

and carrying a couple of carabiners for a carb break …

just know how to tie a monster munter in case you drop yr gear

[Douglas Ray]

I would weigh in and say that how thin the cord could be would depend on the terrain you are rappelling. 5mm is strong enough but it will cut very easily under load, if the rock has sharp edges it would be more like 8mm.

I don't think any of the normal belay/rappel devices would really work very well with one strand of 5mm cord. Rock Exotica makes a little modified figure 8 device for just such a purpose, but personally I would probably go with a "monser munter" or "super munter".

[Roger Caffin]

Like several others, I carry and have used 5 mm kernmantel rope for minor gentle abseils. Usually doubled I should add: we want to retrieve the rope for later on during the trip!

Obviously I have also used the same rope for pack-hauling and top-roping.

It is worth checking the specs for these ropes: you will find there is a reasonable safety factor even on such a thin rope. 'Reasonable', when the rope is in good condition!

The biggest problems with 5 mm are holding it and getting controlled friction. If I know we are likely to be doing some abseils of decent size on the trip (canyon country etc), then I take ~40 m of 6 mm and an ATC descender with a sling. Once again, care and skill are needed when holding the rope because the rope is so thin.

I carefully check the rope after every use, running it through my hand to look for any damage. I also clean it when needed after every use.

We do this, with a background of extreme rock climbing. But I do NOT recommend using such thin rope to anyone. If you don't have an extensive background of rock climbing you may be flirting with (your own) death; if you do have such a background you can and should make your own decisions.

Cheers

[David Olsen]

"I perused that mountaineering book, and I guess what I'm looking for is a rope for tying in on a running belay on class 4 scrambles, and then top belaying once the leader is in place. Maybe for moving together over a snow or ice field, too. And, as I mentioned, occasional rappels in nontechnical canyons. (But not real class 5 rock climbing.)

As such, I guess I should take a class, and get a few basic pieces of protection. Most scrambles almost by definition have a lot of natural protection so I think I'd be well served simply with a bunch of webbing runners and a few carabiners, but a handful of chocks couldn't hurt either. Anyone have any recommendations for lightweight chocks? I kinda like the multi-purpose capabilities of the Black Diamond Hexcentric or Lowe Tri-Cam. Are they relatively light as protection goes? Or should I just get a selection of wired nuts? (Spring-loaded cams look heavy.)

I guess I'm curious about the UL view on protection. (With an emphasis that I'm not talking about technical rock climbing, and not even anything very close to vertical. In THOSE situations, since you're life is on the line in such an immediate and dramatic fashion, I'd personally say "Damn the weight!")

Well, this is all a bit premature, anyway. I have to take a class or something, first. But I like to take a while to think about such things, so I'm interested in opinions.
"

---

Dean, I am afraid you are hooked.

Buy nothing but a dynamic rope because you are going to want
to try harder and harder things. Like golf there is always
room for improvement in climbing and it can be addicting.

The definition of 3 and 4th classes can REALLY vary.
If you read the guidebook for the Sierra Nevada by Roper
and Steck you will discover that 3rd class means if you
fall you could be badly injured and on 4th class it is
fatal. 4th class on some of their routes means using all
4 limbs to carefully climb with 100's of feet of exposure.
Hence you want a decent rope and protection.

Here is what I really like for pro when taking
groups on Outward Bound courses in Joshua Tree, the Sierra
and the North Cascades and still going light as possible.
This is for real 4th class climbing and setting up top
ropes and rappels. The students carried extra webbing with their gear as well as their harnesses and helmets so you will likely want to bring more webbing in
your kit. For example you want some sort of sling or
joint on wired pro or movement can lever them out.

Each Instructor:

1 tied runner for leaving on raps and to sling gear

2 lockers (one large enough to belay and
rappel using a munter) and 6 non-lockers

6 pieces of rock pro.
I liked Tri Cams 1.2.3 (most useful of all the pro
for the weight, but a bit fiddly, but since you are
talking easy climbs you will have time to fiddle)
3 Wild Country Rocks in the sizes just smaller than
the Tri Cams. A partner can carry additional sizes
or the ones in between. I liked Hexes slung on webbing
for sizes greater than the Number 3 tricam. Webbing
because it reduced the need to use an extra sling to
keep the hex from walking.

1 each 6', 11' and 20' of 7 mm cord for anchors and prussics.

If on snow add:
1 small fluke or picket

On glaciers add
1 or 2 ice screws

[Don Morris]

Interesting discussion. I can only add a couple of points. You need experience, not equipment. Equipment can come next. This is not an area where you should be unduly obsessed with weight. Yes, "thick" ropes are heavy. When you are hanging from them, they are rarely too heavy.

I have seen way too much unexpected abrasion, not all of it from sharp edges, to feel very comfortable about anything thinner than 8 mm for any serious use, and even that should be handled very carefully.

The distinction between dynamic and static ropes is pointless in the context in which you are using it. Climbers rappel on dynamic ropes all the time. They are adequately stiff under normal rappelling loads. Static ropes are best used on long rappels and particularly in single rope climbing techniques. Your situations seem to involve potentially dynamic applications.

[James holden]

which brings up a good point. … with a thin rope chances of a core shot are higher

make sure you know how to butterfly the exposed section … and pass the knot …

the classic case is Toni Kurz in 1936 dying on the Nordwand when he couldn't pass his knot …. there have been many others over the ages

[Bob Gross]

"the classic case is Toni Kurz in 1936 dying on the Nordwand"

For you civilians out there, that is the Eiger North Face.

–B.G.–

[Paul Marvin]

Hi Eric,

Can you clarify how to "make sure you know how to butterfly the exposed section" or direct me to a refence?

Thanks,

Paul

[James holden]

http://books.google.ca/books?id=ki_VBwnr5iEC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=pass+knot+rappel&source=bl&ots=xJ_dwdhtc7&sig=RwppTnps-1FLNAMgdE6bzutV8Kw&hl=en&ei=MdL_TJX6HpTksQPXqIWwCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFAQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=pass%20knot%20rappel&f=false

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/PassKnot.htm

http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttaid222/

different ways of doing it … most self rescue books have a good description of it as well … make sure you practice with a backup …

it'll likely be prety difficult to do on a very thin 5mm rope … as prussiks would be hard to grip unless you use like 3m for them

[Paul Marvin]

Thanks Eric!

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