Down Works Balaclava (Richard Nisley)

[CW]

Down Works has updated their website to list details on their current balaclava offerings. I'm wondering if the previously mentioned temp rating of 12 still applies.

They list 3 models:

UL with .63 oz down at 2 oz
Light with .95 oz down at 2.5 oz
Standard with 1.13 oz down at 3 oz

You can choose the fabric(s) on all 3.

Previous models were stated as being on par with the Nunatak which is listed at 3-4 oz depending on shell but includes 2+ oz of down.

Is the statement that both are roughly equivalent in warmth still valid?

[Jeff K]

Here it the link downworks.com

[Raymond Estrella]

I am interested in the answer to this too. I am going to need more head protection than my fleece bala once my Expedition arrives.

If they are the same warmth then the Downworks is a good deal at $75.00

But I have a hard time understanding that it can be so as Nunatak says they use 2+ oz(57+ g) of down to the Downworks 32 g.

[Jim W.]

This is one of those areas where temp rating doesn't mean much. It covers about 10% of your body surface area. Naked wearing a balaclava you could sleep in about 78F weather. Under a 16" loft quilt you could sleep well below zero.

Just like the old adage "you lose xx% of your heat through the head." a temperature rating would be meaningless without knowing what covers the rest of the body.

I wish they listed loft or clo!

[Lynn Tramper]

As someone who has played with both, the Downworks Balaclava seems warmer and loftier. I don't know how they do it! Having said that, the UL model I used weighed in at 78g. There is less baffling and other material (front opening with overlap for snaps etc…) in the Downworks product, which might make up the weight difference?

[Evan Cabodi]

Have you looked at the Black Rock Hat yet? http://www.blackrockgear.com. It's not the full head cover like the balaclava but it's more versitile and can be worn all day instead of just sleeping. It's less than an ounce and so warm I'd doubt you'd need anything else unless you were camping in 20 below.

---

Evan

I think you have a vested interest in Black Rock? You MUST declare that vested interest in ANY posting like this. Let's keep everything very open and above board.

Cheers
Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light

[Jolly Green Giant]

@Evan

Do you know anything about the owner of Black Rock? I hear he's a pretty righteous guy who visits BPL from time to time :)

[Chad Miller]

I don't understand how someone could wear a down hat like the Blackrock all day. The product page says that the lining is a fabric called Dryline and that:

"The interior headband is made from Dryline which aggressively pulls moisture away from the body to the fabric surface where it disperses and dries quickly. This High performance material quickly evaporates moisture so you stay dry and comfortable."

The above graphic is supposed to show how the hats Dryline lining works but before it would get to the outside air wouldn't it encounter the down insulation?

[Lynn Tramper]

Comparing the Black Rock Beanie to the Downworks Balaclava is like comparing the BPL merino UL top to the Nunatak Skaha. Apples to Oranges in a big way.

[Jim W.]

"…before it would get to the outside air wouldn't it encounter the down insulation?"

Yes, but vapor pressure through the dead air spaces would do a good job of moving vapor, and down itself does a pretty good job of moving moisture as long as it hasn't reached the "collapse" point of being soaked. I find down to offer much broader comfort range in sleeping bags just like I find wool to have a broader comfort range in baselayers.

Evan: It's good form to take full credit for the fine products that you make when you post about them. Otherwise you might get called a "sock puppet".

[Lynn Tramper]

Note that the dryline fabric is used only in the headband, which is a tiny fraction of the entire inside fabric surface of the beanie. The rest of the inner is ordinary UL nylon. The Black Rock is also not very windproof compared to my WindBlock beanie.

[Evan Cabodi]

Sorry Roger Caffin and everyone… I didn't mean to be a sock puppet (Jim) :)

I am the owner and maker of the Black Rock Hat so yes, I am biased, have a vested interest or whatever you want to call it about the hat. I just couldn't pass up a thread on down head gear :) I didn't mean to deal out any subterfuge in who I am. My name and screen name are blatantly posted. I'll come up with a sig line or something saying Black Rock Gear. Sorry guys… I just get into it when talking and thinking about down stuff!

I simply love my hats and everyone that gets one seems to like them too. They are not a balaclava and don't cover your neck and chin, but I think the simplicity and versatility of the hat make them a great option for somebody that wants one single hat to take to the mountains each time. And yes, I wear my own hat sometimes for 5 days at a wack, night and day only to take it off once in a while to slick my hair back :0 So comparing them to the Down Works or the JRB hood is one to one in my book.

I'm not sure about the debate on the dryline. I use it as the stretchy headband material which is about 3" wide. The band does wick away moisture really good, but yes that moisture reaches a layer of momentum first, then down and then more momentum. The down at 900fp does a better job than you'd think at dispersing more moisture but mainly I use that material in the headband so that what's actually touching your skin wicks and spreads the moisture out to evaporate instead of just soaking it up and getting cold spots.

As for the wind blocking characteristics of the hat… I'd disagree that it's not very wind blocking. I can't claim "windproof" since I don't use a windproof material, but two layers of 20 denier single calendared fabric plus nearly an inch of 900 fill down and the headband liner do all but completely block any wind out there. When you put it on it literally separates your head from the elements. 40mph gusts up in the Evolution range and I couldn't feel a thing. So for all intensive purposes you mine as well consider it "windproof".

Anyway, that's all I've got. Sorry to bother you guys over here at BPL. I get bored reading the other forums sometimes and just have to post myself.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Evan

That's fine. Very clear. We don't mind 'enthusiasts' :-)

Any deals you want to offer – in Gear Deals please. There will be interest … :-)

cheers

[Lynn Tramper]

Evan, I fully understand your enthusiasm for your hat, but IMHO, someone who is looking at something like the DownWorks balaclava is looking for something a little beefier and fuller cover than your hat.

"two layers of 20 denier single calendared fabric plus nearly an inch of 900 fill down and the headband liner do all but completely block any wind out there"

It definitely cuts down on the wind, but as I said (by direct comparisons), not as well as a simple windbloc beanie. Anyone who has worn the Montbell UL down inner jacket in the wind will know what I'm talking about, though their fabric is only 15 denier.

Maybe the Black Rock hat I used was underfilled, but an inch of fill would be an overly optimistic approximation, and there is plenty of sewn through stitching to think about too. All-in-all, my opinion of the Black Rock is it would is good to wear for active use in cold temps (below freezing), or for sleeping without a hood down to around ~ freezing, but is not much below a sub-freezing quilters solution. That's why I said apples to oranges. You can't compare less than an inch of sewn through down covering only the top of your head to over two inches of baffled down covering your entire head and neck, and sealing the gap between your shoulders and your quilt. Just like most folks would not wear a DownWorks balaclava for high activity exercise in anything less than arctic winter conditions, most folks equally would not wear a Black Rock beanie for mid winter sub-freezing quilting and camp chores…unless they run very warm! Keep in mind, this is the opinion of a female, and we tend to run cooler than guys.

Having said that, the BlackRock beanie is my first choice for 3-season active use when I don't expect rain (which sadly isn't often), and gives a nice boost to my three or four season sleeping system (a bag with a hood, so I don't need a full balaclava). But if I were quilting, I wouldn't hesitate to carry the extra 1.5 oz of a DownWorks balaclava in winter.

[Lynn Tramper]

PS: For any international members thinking about a BlackRock beanie, Evan has really really reasonable postage rates…DownWorks does not.

[Raymond Estrella]

Thanks for your observations Lynn,

I was thinking of getting the Downworks overstuffed but it sounds like it works well as is from what you have experienced. I will go for the standard though.

[Evan Cabodi]

Thanks for the nice comments Lynn. Very astute observations. I think you pretty much nailed it between the difference and usage for the Blaclava vs a beanie style hat.

The temp rating is definitely different for the two pieces of gear in both the amount of down and baffle style used not to mention the style. I do feel like the hat is more wind resistant though than my Montbell Ex Light down jacket and feels as good as the Arcteryx windstopper hat I have and wear as well. It could be that the added warmth makes up for any loss of heat at a sewn through baffle.

As for the fill, it's gone up slightly over the course of the year and took a major step up when I went from 800+ to 900fp down later this past year. Maybe you tried an older style hat with 800 fill? Did it have a label on the hat? Was the label sewn inside or outside of the hat if there was one?

As for shipping, prices should hold for a long while. I can't do free shipping like the big Amazon's or REI's of the world but I think fair shipping prices can say alot and so far I've shipped from New Zealand and Australia to Hong Kong, Japan, Spain, France, UK, Finland, Austria, Germany, Poland and a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting :)

Roger – I'll definitely post up some deals when they come up. Right now hats sell for $59 but I'm holding onto 2009 prices of $49 until January 31 but I haven't updated my site. I can post that over there once I get things updated.

Thanks guys!

[Chad Miller]

Let me clarify the question I had reguaring wearing a down hat all day.

Let me clarify the question I had regarding wearing a down hat all day.

Correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t the water vapor from you head reach it’s dew point and condense back into water inside the hats insulation?

[Lynn Tramper]

"wouldn’t the water vapor from you head reach it’s dew point and condense back into water inside the hats insulation?"

Not as long as you are active. The head gives off plenty enough heat to keep the down above dewpoint as long as you are active, and the max loft of the BlackRock (the one I've got, which is only a few months old) of around 20mm (3/4 inch) is small enough that even at rest I would be surprised if the hat ever reached dewpoint.

The DownWorks Balaclava OTOH, is a very different beast. Last night I measure it at 70mm or 2 3/4 inches! To see the two side-by-side is quite an eye opener, as the double layer loft of 40mm on the BlackRock is 100mm (4 inch) less than the DownWorks. We're talking about 1.6 of an inch for the BR versus over 5.6 inch for the DW!! I also observed that the DW is not actually a baffled hat, but instead they have two seams sewn through the top and back of the balaclava with the inner fabric a bright blue shiny stuff I've not seen before. Then they finish it with a third layer of UL nylon (looks like Momentum) for the inner that sits next to your skin. This extra layer of fabric makes it look and feel like a baffled garment, but also would dramatically add to it's windproofness and warmth, at the same time giving you an extra layer of protection between your trail grime and the down fill. Of course, it also adds weight, and the compulsive gram weenie may be inclined to completely remove this layer. It would make it pretty ugly, but probably also get it under the 2oz mark… It would be much easier for body vapor to reach dewpoint wearing a balaclava of this design. The vapor has three layers of fabric and a huge amount of loft to travel through.

BlackRock head band is 2 inch, not three, and that's about a 4th of the hat, height-wise, but probably more like a 3rd of the total surface area. Not a criticism, just an observation. The headband is very comfy and works well.

[Evan Cabodi]

There is 3" worth of headband material in the hat, that I guarantee since I measure, cut and sew every one myself. Sewn in it's releaf is less and is closer to 2" wide depending on the size of the hat. I just wanted to clarify that the 3" is what I cut.

[Chad Miller]

That's good to know about the exertion and keeping the water vapor from condencing in the thinner hat.

[Richard Nisley]

Chris,

The temperature rating for the Down Works Standard is ~12F as you stated (avg of 25F and 2F). The Down Works Standard and Nunatak are not equivalent in warmth. I originally did an estimate in lieu of any published DW specs and miscalculated the bill of material weights for the DW fabric total by .78 oz. On closer inspection I see that the DW Standard's design uses two layers of fabric on the outer surface rather than the one layer I used in my original calculation. Their design is based on unique box baffling without sewn through seams.

My view of hats and balaclavas is that they can be sorted into appropriate temperature ranges and matched to an anticipated trip. I view a balaclava as a "super hat" that I can match to a jacket to achieve the equivalent functionality of an expedition parka for a given minimum temperature.

A balaclava is typically a dual use item for UL backpackers. First, it serves as a jacket hood when the temperatures require it. Second, the balaclava and jacket serves as sleep system insulation augmentation. A temperature rating can be assigned to a balaclava by defining the relevant variables (1 clo winter base layers, and sheltered from the wind) and matching it to the closest equivalent jacket worn while doing camp chores (1.5 MET & 2.0 MET avg).

I am of the opinion that Epic is the most practical balaclava fabric for two reasons. First, when worn under a hard shell they don't have the hood volume to completely cover the front of the balaclava. Many inches of material around the face is always exposed to external moisture and condensing breath moisture. Second, the abrasion from the rubbing between the balaclava and the hard shell won't diminish the DWR effectiveness like it would an add-on DWR.

Down insulation, when used in a balaclava, provides the most insulation for the weight, compresses the best for storage, best conforms to the face and neck contours, and will not degrade from compression and decompression cycles.

The Down Works Standard uses an Epic process fabric on its exterior and has a minimum of seams in the front section which is consistently exposed to condensation. I recommend it because of its feature set, in combination with its low weight, and highest $ per degree rating.

Down Works Standard exterior fabric uses an Epic process

[Lynn Tramper]

Just to clarify some of Richard's helpful comments, the DW UL is NOT baffled, as I pointed out above. It is sewn through, and there are two layers of fabric on the inside, not the outside, which, aside from protecting the sewn through seams from wind entry, acts as a buffer between your head and face grime, and the down.

I should also point out that the MB ExLight is a 7-denier jacket, so I would expect it to be a lot more wind-permeable than a 20-denier beanie. My observations were merely comparing a standard 1oz windstopper hat to the BR beanie. It may be more wind-resistant than the 7-denier ExLight, but less so than the Windstopper. That, and it's problematic use in wet environments, limits it use some what for my purposes. Horses for course!

[CW]

Thanks Richard! You're definitely the man when it comes to this stuff.

[Richard Nisley]

Lynn,

The Standard version is reversible. The inside and outside is dependent on what color you want. I defined my outside to be the coated fabric versus the uncoated fabric.

Please check to see if your UL model is reversible. If so, the double layer will then become the outside.

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