How to go w/o sleeping bag down to 32F?

[Lynn Tramper]

From Aron Ralston:

"as the nights went on, the last night being almost down to…to freezing – it was 37 degrees Fahrenheit, according to the Parks Service, on Wednesday night, and no doubt even colder down in the canyon I was in….This had been six days of… Well, up to that point, five days and five nights of just the worst hell that I think a person can go through. In that perspective, I was alone. Again, the sleep deprivation, the cold, the thirst, the hunger, the fatigue, the torture – it was delirium in my head. And all of that had me convinced that I was going to die THAT night. It was the end…."

He wasn't wearing any puffy down jackets!

[James Dubendorf]

This thread has me thinking of that BBC television series with Ray Mears, predecessor of sorts to Survivorman and Man vs. Wild. One purpose of Mears' show is to teach survival techniques in various environments where one possesses a minimum of gear, i.e. no sleeping bag. What he almost always does have, however, is a huge axe. Elaborate shelters and large fires are constructed by Mears at great expense to the surrounding flora and fauna- trees, ferns, moss, etc. Sure, says Mears, you can sleep without a sleeping bag, but it will require a six foot long fire trough burning all night. This technique could come in handy, but it is clearly not a practical solution for regular backcountry travel in LNT style.

I realize that if survival is at stake, it is sometimes necessary to compromise Leave No Trace ethics. Furthermore, Mears generally puts himself in out of the way places where his overall impact is probably fairly negligible. However, for me the show highlights another function of gear in the backcountry beyond maintenance of life and limb: gear helps us maintain LNT ethics. With adequate insulation and a stove, one can exist in the backcountry without disturbing your surroundings, particularly in fragile environments such as those found above treeline, or areas that experience high levels of use.

I don't mean to imply by any means that anyone here is dispensing with or violating LNT ethics. Pushing the limits of gear, or lack thereof, is an interesting challenge, and no one is dispensing with their sleeping bag while sharpening their axe! Furthermore, I don't want to get involved in a discussion of different views on how best to apply LNT ethics, or whether particular lifestyles or ways of traveling are LNT or not. It is only to say that while pushing the limits of ultralight travel, the question should be about both personal comfort/safety as well as one's ability to travel through the backcountry in an ethical manner. This includes a consideration of the sacrifices that must be made if gear fails or is inadequate to the task. Probably all the more reason to test the limits in conditions where massive quantities of hot chocolate and pancakes are relatively close at hand!

[Lynn Tramper]

I notice that a small axe made Ryan Jordan's top three gear picks for 2008…I'll bet Aron Ralston would have made good use of one too!

[Brian UL]

" However, for me the show highlights another function of gear in the backcountry beyond maintenance of life and limb: gear helps us maintain LNT ethics."

I know you didnt want want a LNT discussion but I thought it interesting to point out that many traditional skills people view our gear as having a bigger 'overall' impact on the environment since its almost all produced from petroleum and precious metals. Then add all the impact of manufacture, distribution, and marketing of said gear.- Something to think about.

[Lynn Tramper]

I was having the same thoughts as Brian, but also feel it's vitally important to protect wilderness areas that we haven't yet trashed. The true LNT way to do this would be to make them off-limits to humans. Probably not a popular political choice. There is actually an area in NZ where you are allowed to go, but no planes or choppers are allowed to fly in, and it's really hard to get to it without flying in…

[Roger Caffin]

> it's vitally important to protect wilderness areas that we haven't yet trashed.
> There is an area in NZ where you are allowed to go, but no planes or choppers are allowed to fly in
Most of the Australian Alps are the same: all commercial and private aviation has to stay above a certain height above ground.
An exception is made for the Parks chopper to retrieve a Port-a-Loo from an overwhelmingly popular area. :-)

Cheers

[Richard Scruggs]

My very first climb (about 40 years ago in the Tetons) was intended to be up and down Symmetry Spire in a day. Our descent included a long unplanned slide down a couloir, delaying our return long enough for darkness to force an overnight "bivy" halfway down the route — without a bivy.

The two of us huddled together all night for warmth, with feet stuck in our rucksacks. That time of year (June) and at that altitude, it was way too cold to get any sleep all night long. Didn't have a thermometer to see how low the temp got that night — BUT IT WAS VERY DEFINITELY COLD!!

Finished our descent the next morning. Can vividly recall walking into the Jenny Lake ranger station to the welcome bright red glow of their pot-bellied stove. I could have sat by that stove for a week.

Would never choose to experience another night like that.

But then, didn't really "choose" to do so that night.

JRS

[James Dubendorf]

At the risk of steering this thread too far off course…

Brian, I think you make an essential point. Wilderness ethics are not just about what we carry or how we camp, but how we get to the trailhead, where our gear comes from, who made it, who lived in the national park before it was a park, how items were transported to us, how we were convinced to buy them, how long we will use gear before replacing it, and so on. Understanding our place within these systems of labor and exchange is very complicated. I mean, look how hard it is to buy a Christmas tree!

http://www.slate.com/id/2180086/

That said, I doubt that the solutions fall easily along either UL or non-UL, ProLiteGear or Cabelas, lines. I claim no special insight in these matters, and certainly feel overwhelmed at times. I guess my sense is that a good place to start is with the things that you can most easily control, the impacts you can anticipate and avoid. I can and have avoided that fire above treeline, and I have to hope this was not a futile or merely self-congratulatory gesture!

That said, I know better than to tempt fate by diving into a discussion on restricted backcountry use and access, except to state my hardline opposition to ANY jetplane airliner wishing to land next to my tent.

[Brian James]

A few of the replies to this thread make it sound like the old chestnut about freezing to death while sleeping is still alive and well.

The earliest stage of hypothermia is violent shivering. You cannot sleep through this: the motion and adrenaline will wake you from any sleep, so no worries there.

As for the OP's question, sleeping in pyjamas and a bivy sack at freezing is entirely doable by many people.

The fact that the OP is asking about it on an internet forum, however, proves conclusively that he has neither the metabolism nor the experience for it. He will be miserable after a couple of hours if he tries it at home, and he will have to walk all night so he doesn't die if he tries it alone in the backcountry.

OP, your hypothesis is easily testable. Wrap yourself in a bedsheet and sit in a lawn chair at 30*F. Just read a book or something, and ponder the fact that your body temperature drops when you fall asleep! Just get your Mom to leave the door unlocked and some cocoa on the stove…

[nanook ofthenorth]

We did a climb in the Canadian Rockies this summer where we ended up getting pinned down for an unplanned bivy.
Unlined softshell pants, a pair of dry socks each in our boots, baselayer, R1 hoody, windshirt, Gore-Tex and a hooded OR Fraction jacket, fleece gloves, and a wool hat each – should be warm enough, right? We FROZE.
Even with our legs in our packs, sitting on the ropes and huddling together wraped in a 1/2 cm foam pad (to cut the wind and grapel of course) we where preaty wrecked by morning.
With the windchill the tempratures were probaly around -5C. Next time I'll bring a bothy bag.

Could it work, yes – would you be comforable? I'd say no, not unless you brought enough clothing to offset the loss of the bag – and then theres the weigth…

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