Gear Suited for Wet, Cold Weather Hiking

[Addie Bedford]

Companion forum thread to:

Gear Suited for Wet, Cold Weather Hiking

[Einstein X]

Greg,

Don't be put off by Chris' description of Scottish weather, just check the next time I'll be in Scotland (Oct '09) and the weather'll be fine. Thus far I have spent some 30-odd days in the Scottish hills, divided over three holidays and it has only been raining on about four or five of these days. Do however expect the ground in Scotland to be wet in any season under any weather condition. As Chris will be able to verify last time I visited Scotland the weather was uncannily well (TGO'08).

Secondly, I would like to second the use of the original Buff, which is a piece of gear largely overlooked (IMHO) on the other side of the big pond. For a few years now I never hike without two of them and find them unbelievably useful and multi-functional. In any weather I wear one on my head; in warm weather pirate-style which helps pull moisture from my head, dissipate this over a large area to evaporate and thus helps to cool my head and also protects against UV-light; in very warm weather I even wet my Buff frequently to help the cooling effect; in cold weather I wear my Buff beanie-style and find this is all I need to keep my head warm (I usually do not hike much colder than -5/20). The second Buff is used to pad my gossamer shoulder strap; as covering of my lower face and neck, essentially making a balaclava in combination with the first Buff (worn as beanie); this two Buff system also works well up to about freezing under my hood-less top-bag sleeping bag (Nunatak Ghost) to keep my head warm(-ish).

Furthermore I have used my Buffs to wash and towel off with; altho I haven't, I recon they'd make excellent pre-filters for water; woman (or men) can wear them in various ways to arrange their long hair; as scarf in deserts to keep the dust out and I could even see myself use them as emergency bandages.

Eins

EDIT: check out my avatar pic <<==, taken in Scotland just outside Breamar during this years edition of said TGO, looks pretty darn nice the weather doesn't it? And it most certainly was!

[joe newton]

Chris,

Thank you for a great article. I find many, many interesting articles and fantastic advice here on BPL but sometimes the advice doesn't seem to relate to the cooler, wetter climes of my native England or my current residence here in Bergen, Norway. Your article answered a few questions that I'd had swimming around my head for a while and will save me some expensive mistakes. One other question: your trek through Norway & Sweden, is this documented anywhere as I had plans for a similar adventure next year. Thanks again.

[David Ure]

nm

[Will Rietveld]

Great article Chris! Nobody knows wet and cold like you do. Building igloos in Yellowstone til midnight must be a walk in the park for you, compared to walking in the Scottish highlands!

Best,
Will

[Kathleen B]

For those as clueless as me as to what a Buff is:

http://www.buffwear.com/

[John Carter]

I do what Chris does, using a single wall tent with bivy. I find it lighter and more versatile.

I would love to see a condensation comparison test performed at BPL.com, using double-wall tents in group A and single wall+bivy tents in group B to compare differences in down loft degradation over time.

I can use a Shangri-La 3/Hex 3 and bivy for just over 2 lbs and have the same structural strength as many double walled tents, plus have MUCH more interior space. One could get much lighter with an MLD pyramid. But I would like to see the weaknesses of this system compared to double-walled tents.

[Lynn Tramper]

In bear country I find an umbrella to be invaluable for cooking under (not to mention they're nice for nature's call in the middle of the night, keeping sun off, etc…).

The only thing I do differently to Chris is typically kiwi. We tend to just wear shorts and knee-high gaitors, and when it gets really cold we put long johns on UNDER our shorts. It's an odd look for sure. We also tend to wear longer rain jackets, thus our legs are mostly protected from shoes to knees, and from head to mid thigh, allowing us to ditch the rain pants.

[Chris Townsend]

Thanks for all your comments and useful suggestions folks.

Joe, there was an article on my Norway/Sweden trek in TGO sometime in 1993 (I think!). Other than that I've never found a publisher interested in it. I'd be happy to answer any queries about the walk.

Bergen is a lovely city. I've been there many times. It does rain a great deal though!

David, only being 5'8" does give me a big advantage with the Akto. I probably wouldn't like it so much if I was six foot. I have used a Hex/Shangri-La 3 at times and I do like the extra room, especially in winter when I find the Akto a little small for 17 hour nights. I haven't used a bivi bag in the Hex/SL3 and have never had a damp sleeping bag. But I haven't used it on a two week trip. The bivi would add extra warmth but I'd rather have a warmer sleeping bag or clothing in cold weather. As a warm sleeper I find the Akto too warm when fully closed in summer even with an ultralight bag. Unless there are biting insects around I never close the Akto inner door.

Will, glad you liked the piece. Building igloos after midnight in nice dry cold weather is easier than a day in a Scottish storm!

Allison, hill runners wear long johns under shorts here but for some reason it's never really caught on with hikers. Long rain jackets are hard to find here – I often hear complaints from hikers who prefer them but for some reason companies don't make them anymore. A hip length jacket is now regarded as long.

[Dondo .]

Einstein, I'm a big Buff fan from this side of the pond. Mine never gets left behind. The multi-use rivals that of a bandana. In addition to the many uses you mention, it also works well as an eye shade on those clear full-moon nights.

[James Lantz]

Chris,
Thanks for a great article. I find that an important item that should never be left off a cold & wet gear list is 2 oz of 16 YO Lagavulin in a lightweight Nalgene flask!;) It seems to make the experience much better while reading a good book & watching the showers race by;)

[Franco Darioli]

Chris
Very informative, thank you very much.
We know that you like your Akto, but can we please have some comments about the Lightwave T0 Ultra ?
How come it isn't more popular ?
I somehow visualise it to be in-between the Laser Competition and the Akto as far as "storm-proofness" (?)
Your picture is the first one I have seen from the inside of it…
Franco

[Richard Young]

If I could jump in here…

I have a T0 Trek, which is essentially a slightly heavier version of the Ultra.
I am just under 6ft and really like the extra room around the shoulders and head that the T0 gives me compared to the Akto when sitting up cooking, reading etc.
The porch is also very good and offers plenty of sheltered space for cooking and storing gear.
I have also found it quite sturdy in rain, strong winds and snow – not on a par with my Terra Nova Quasar, but what is!
The T0 also vents well in warmer weather.
The one improvement I would suggest is pegging points on the fly half way between the pole sleeves. This would stop the fly flapping quite as much in strong winds. This doesn't seem to affect the stability of the tent, it is more an issue of noise.
All in all I think the T0 Trek it is a very good tent for the weight and especially the money. I am amazed that more people don't rate it.

Over to you now Chris…

[Einstein X]

Not owning one, I would to give my € 0.02 on LightWave. I find it interesting that they stick to the idea of inner-tent pitch first. In most situation I like to pitch outer first, so inner stays dry. However, a sales rep of LW gave me some good argument about why they still apply inner first. He said that with inner first you get a much tauter pitch of the inner tent, secondly the inner tents of LW are DWR treated and since pitching doesn't take more than a few moments it's really not a problem if the inner tent gets a few drop of rain on it. Also with the inner first system you can peel of the fly the next (dry) morning and let the inner dry out while doing morning chores.

Still I personally prefer outer pitch first (in rare cases when I do take a tent), but LW does make excelent designs on their tents.

Eins

[Richard Young]

Good point Eins

As all of my tents are inner pitch first I never really give it a thought. I just make sure I can get the outer on the tent in under a minute!

Specifically with the TO Trek the DWR coating seems to work – I've not had problems with water finding its way in to the inner despite pitching in very wet and windy conditions i.e. a typical UK day on the hill.

[Chris Townsend]

Franco, I had the T0 Ultra on test for a few months and used it on some really stormy weather. It performed well for a tent of that weight. I agree with what Richard says but I'd add that being a tunnel tent it's best to pitch it with the rear into the wind in storms.

Lightwave are a small fairly new company which is why I think their tents (and packs) aren't better known. They are building up a good reputation in Britain.

[Diplomatic Mike]

Nice article Chris.
Backpacking in Scotland is fun!
I hope folk don't think it is a waterlogged nightmare!
The very changeable weather is something to enjoy, not dislike. You can have beautiful, sunny weather and pouring rain within an hour.

To get the silver lining, you gotta have the clouds. :)

[Franco Darioli]

Thank you Richard, Eins and Chris. I had forgotten about the inner pitch first, maybe not a big deal but I had in mind something like NZ ( after all Carol at LW is a Kiwi) or Tasmanian weather, so it is a consideration, but mostly to me it looks like a very good alternative (the Trek price wise and the Ultra in weight) to the ubiquitous Akto and Terra Novas.
I liked the idea of increasing the vestibule space by lifting a corner of the inner, although it looks OK without doing this. For some reason I thought that its predecessor ( ZR0 Cylq) was more popular in spite of the seemingly improved condensation management of the T0.

Back to the main article, keeping warm ( sane ?) after a few days of continuous rain is a challenge, so thanks again for some very doable solutions.
Franco

[Roger Caffin]

> However, a sales rep of LW gave me some good argument about why they still apply inner first.
Biased (and dangerous) BS.

> He said that with inner first you get a much tauter pitch of the inner tent,
You don't need a taut pitch on the inner tent, only on the outer. Had he ever used a tent?

> secondly the inner tents of LW are DWR treated and since pitching doesn't take more than
> a few moments it's really not a problem if the inner tent gets a few drop of rain on it.
What utter crap. Saying 'a few drops of rain' simply means the guy has never camped in bad weather. We can get 1/2" of rain in 10 minutes – and we pitch tents while it is raining.

> Also with the inner first system you can peel of the fly the next (dry) morning and let the inner dry out while doing morning chores.
Hysterical mirth, and amazement. This sales rep must have been a complete con-man. What if the next five mornings are still raining? Happens quite often.

Cheers

[Einstein X]

That's quite a negative non-contributing reply don't you think Rog? Mistrusting a sales rep, just because he's a sales rep. Yes indeed, he does have an economic interest in finding arguments that help in selling his product, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is a 'complete con-man'. I do understand rog that as an Australian man you descend from a bunch of criminals we over here in Europe could find no better use for than to dump them down-under and maybe that means that in Ausie you cannot trust anyone, but over here in civilized Europe sales reps aren't con-men and i have spoken to many knowledgeable ones.*

I usually think your articles and comment are very insightful but I see no reason why you should bash this sales rep so much. I have sold many tents when I used to work in a store and yes, I have had many customers who did not like the droop in the inner tent fabric of inner-pitch first designs. Maybe you forgot that there are people out there not constantly fixated on pure functionality of the product, but buy a tent because they like how it looks and will use it in good weather on a (say) biking tour through France in summer and sleeping on campsites. They might indeed appreciate the tauter inner tent fabric in an inner-pitch first as well as being able t pitch without the fly on warm nights. There are still many tent models that pitch inner-first (Vaude, Eureka!), is it a BPL viewpoint that these are all inferior?

You're a much older and hence much more experienced camper than i am rog, maybe you can still remember that 15 (?) years ago there were only inner-pitch first designs available? Am I to understand that in that time you were unable to quickly pitch your tent when there was 13mm of rain in 10 mins and consequently always had miserable wet camping experiences due to you lack of skill? You disappoint me.

Eins

*I do not have any problems with people from down under or from anywhere else, nor do I have problems with people of any race, believe or sexual preference, I do however have a problem with remarks like Roger’s, which to me seem to have no contribution to this discussion other than to express Roger’s apparent complete contempt of any sales rep.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Eins,
do you know the name of the rep you talked to?
I kind of know the guy who owns the agency and one thing I do know is that he certainly has enough experience to know what he's talking about. So I agree with Eins that it is a bit cheap to criticise him without knowing him.

[Lynn Tramper]

>You're a much older and hence much more experienced camper than i am rog, maybe you can still remember that 15 (?) years ago there were only inner-pitch first designs available? Am I to understand that in that time you were unable to quickly pitch your tent when there was 13mm of rain in 10 mins and consequently always had miserable wet camping experiences due to you lack of skill?

Yikes. You got the first part right (older and more experienced)…MacPac NZ has been making tents for 'real'weather for many decades. You could pitch the outer first is you wanted to, and they had no problems with the inner drooping in your face either. I agree with Roger's sentiment, but also recognise that some people will buy gear just for aesthetic purposes. It free choice. You can believe a sales rep, or you can believe someone older and more experienced who is not trying to sell you anything…sounds like for most people it wouldn't make a big difference if you are fine weather only hikers.

[Martin Rye]

Eins do take head of what Chris is saying about the wet and wind. Sooner or later you wont be near a bothy in the highlands to take shelter in, or have a mate along with a tent to get into when the tarp is flapping about and the rain is pouring down.

Colin Ibbotson used a tarp on the 08 Challenge which had good weather. It suffered damage then. He has been talking about appropriate design suitable to Scotland in May for a tarp on Andy Howells web site. Chris has wrote a brilliant article with good advice and those going to Scotland take his advice on board.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Eins

Yes, we are proud of our convict ancestors. With no training and few tools and under harsh conditions, they were shipped half-way around the world to live or die, and they survived. That they had been convicted for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their families – well, that shows what social conditions back in the UK were like then.

Yep, there is still a mind-set in Australia which values independence and a healthy suspicion of 'authority', and which requires people to prove themselves directly.

Yes, we can be a bit plain-spoken at times. If that offends, my apologies.

(OK, end of preachy!)

> Roger’s apparent complete contempt of any sales rep
I don't mistrust a sales rep automatically, but I don't trust him at first meeting either; I reserve my judgement until he has spoken. Basically, he has to earn my trust. Some do. But if he comes up with what I know to be a load of old cobblers, then I down-rate him.
Mind you, it is not only sales reps which get judged like that here, and not just by me.

Why was I so harsh in this case? Because I think the rep's comments were potentially dangerous for novices.

> Maybe you forgot that there are people out there not constantly fixated on pure
> functionality of the product, but buy a tent because they like how it looks and will use it
> in good weather
OK, you are right here. I am not one for the fashionistas. For me functionality of my gear is paramount. Other people may have different requirements, and that's OK.

> appreciate … being able to pitch without the fly on warm nights
Around Sydney, where I live, a 'warm night' can be followed by a bit of wind and a hailstorm in a matter of half an hour. Very different conditions from what you may be used to? Different climes, different needs.

> is it a BPL viewpoint that these are all inferior
I speak for myself, not for BPL, on such matters. Only Ryan, Steph, Don and Karen can speak for BPL.
But since BPL is dedicated to UL backcountry walking, I suggest that functionality probably IS the most important thing for most readers. I may be wrong.

> maybe you can still remember that 15 (?) years ago there were only inner-pitch first designs available?
Your basic premiss is wrong, at least in Oz/NZ. I started bushwalking when I was 14. I am now 63. I have never bought a tent which required the inner to be pitched first. Few are even sold like that here. As Allison wrote, here in Oz/NZ serious tents are always pitched outer-first, because of the weather.

Are tents which pitch inner-first inferior in my mind? Absolutely.

Yes, I have pitched my tent in storms, but since they have all been outer-first tents, no worries. In fact, one time I ended up with the bathtub groundsheet literally floating on about 1/2" of water. I had to improvise a table to cook dinner!

Cheers

[Martin Rye]

Roger on.. "I suggest that functionality probably IS the most important thing for most readers. I may be wrong."..

Wrong? not here. Function all the way. Who cares if it is a 1g wonder if it cant keep the rain of and keep you warm, or prepare a hot meal it is pointless having it. Well said.

[Author]

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