Post-Trip Assessment of Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking

[Benjamin Smith]

Companion forum thread to:

Post-Trip Assessment of Lightweight Gear for Long Distance Hiking

[Frank Ramos]

The last word on thermal underwear is Brynje polypropylene fishnet: http://www.brynje.no, which you can buy from reliable racing here in the US. If you haven't tried Brynje fishnet, you don't know what good thermal underwear is.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Franco

> But now I also need quick drying underpants…..Lycra is just not it.
Oh, the opportunities for smart comments …
Behave yourself Roger!

Indeed. I am testing some synthetics, but it is too early to make any comments.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Per

> To me it sums up as a question of comfort; most synthetics make me feel like I am walking with a tropical climate taped to my body most of the time and after a day the stench is almost unbearable.
I suspect we tend to dress 'cooler' than you. We don't even bother with anything under our Taslan shell tops until it is at or below freezing. This may be why we simply don't have the stink problem with our clothing. It is interesting that the Taslan fabric does not seem to develop a smell either.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Roleigh

> I'm curious how the Packa fits if you do not have a pack on your back? Does it work ok around camp when your pack is inside the tent and it is raining outside?
I must point out that ours are a DIY product, not quite the same as the Packa design. But close enough to carry the answers over to it.

Well, the back is a bit floppy. What else can I say? BUT, it remains fully waterproof, which is all that really matters. I did wonder about putting some little doodads inside it to hitch it up when I am not wearing a pack, but it seemed like too much of a hassle and in fact unnecessary.

Our style of walking is to go fairly hard all day and to stop none too early. We collect water, maybe have a quick wash in the creek if there is one, and then we get into our tent, change if wet, and start cooking dinner. By the time we have finished dinner and cleaned up it is usually dark. In winter dinner might be completed by headlight in fact.

The only reason to get out of the tent is to go to the loo after dinner. If it is raining but it isn't too cold I might strip off most of my clothing, pop the poncho on, and head out. Fortunately neither of us need to get up in the middle of the night to go to the loo.

So, summary: it works fine.

[Franco Darioli]

Hi Roger
You made a comment about your wet cotton underwear not drying as quickly as synthetic would. That is also my problem, I hardly notice a wet patch on my wool top but my wet cotton undies are uncomfortable.
Best of luck finding a solution to your problem and keep us posted. ( No need to be embarassed, you are a Doctor after all)

I hope that this clears things up.
Franco

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Franco

> Best of luck finding a solution to your problem and keep us posted.
For sure.

> ( No need to be embarassed, you are a Doctor after all)
???? Now just take off all your clothes and lie down please …
Yeah – a PhD in Physics!

Cheers

[Einstein X]

Hey Roger,

Very interesting to read your post trip article. Thanks for posting.

Eins

[Franco Darioli]

Roger
Try the ExOfficio "sport briefs", the only ones that dried in the very short non rainy period between arriving at camp and the all night rain in Nepal. One of the guys had them, he was very happy with them. After the first few days everybody else started the day with damp underwear. We all died of exposure, but got better afterwards. (actually just missed a snowstorm, 200m above us, when we expected hot and sunny days)

Now tents
How about an article on your tents, both summer and winter design. I have noticed that your "3 season" tent has 3 poles. What happened to the two pole version ? (Sven's tent)
In particular you could discuss the use of silnylon,carbon fiber poles (when they work and when they fail) the advantage of using hubs or "elbows" and the practicality versus weight increase of a large ( not in square but cubic feet) vestibule.
I understand that you are reluctant to work for $8 an hour, but maybe someone else could pick the design up and have them made on a production line.

Franco

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Franco

> Try the ExOfficio "sport briefs",
Funny about that. The local rep has just sent me a pair to try. Trouble is it is too stinking hot to do much walking right now.

> How about an article on your tents, both summer and winter design.
We are working on the calendar for 2008 right now. It is a possibility. But how much interest would there be? (Comments invited from interested parties.)

> I understand that you are reluctant to work for $8 an hour,
It worked out at about $3/hour. Sigh.

Cheers
Roger

[John G]

I'd be interested in seeing a BPL article on tent designs.

I've been trying to figure out whether adding a 12-16" vertical silnylon wall topped by a 8-12" mesh wall section in a tarp tent would get condensation that would wet out a DWR / Taffeta sleeping bag even if the solid vertical wall was protected by 12" of horizontal overhang from the tarp tent roof. I'm hoping I don't have to build one in order to find out…

ps: The elbow ideas on your website is interesting. Do they make it hard to slide the poles into the sleeves ?

[Chris Jackson]

Roger,

I too am a fan of real vestibules (not just beaks) .
I wouldn't be game to attempt your tent as a DIY project, but would be interested in a one-man model if it was available from one of the UL manufacturers.

A few questions about your excellent tent designs:

(1) You mentioned that your 3-pole summer tent suffered some damage in turbulent wind gusts. Is the limiting factor here the carbon-fiber pole strength, or some design subtlety such as catenary cut? After all, the similar looking (but heavy) macpac olympus can withstand high winds. Could you make your 3-pole tent bombproof by using some of the high-strength easton carbon fiber poles that were used in the rab summit raider?

(2) Your tent is made of silnylon, and you mention that you haven't been impressed with spinnaker fabrics. Have you examined a sample of the 0.95 oz spinnaker available from thru-hiker and mld ? That is supposedly well suited to tarps and tents.

(3) Since many backpackers in the USA use trekking poles, perhaps consider a design which replaces the carbon fiber poles with trekking poles. What do you think of the pole setup at the front of the tarptent squall 2? It uses two poles plus a horizontal strut. Something like that might reduce the cost of the end product. For a one-man tent, you might be able to get away with a single vertical pole at the foot end.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi John

> I'd be interested in seeing a BPL article on tent designs.
Thanks for the comment. Thinking …

> I've been trying to figure out whether adding a 12-16" vertical silnylon wall topped by a 8-12" mesh wall section in a tarp tent would get condensation that would wet out a DWR / Taffeta sleeping bag even if the solid vertical wall was protected by 12" of horizontal overhang from the tarp tent roof.
My tent has a 150 mm (6") wall on the groundsheet. I have had condensation on the roof, but never on the groundsheet sidewall.

> The elbow ideas on your website is interesting. Do they make it hard to slide the poles into the sleeves ?
They do mean I can't stand back and slide the pole in to the sleeve in one go. But otherwise they do not make for any difficulties. Feeding the poles in and out is simple. I have had this tent in the snow as well (it was not meant to snow, but it did!) and there were no hassles.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Chris

> your 3-pole summer tent suffered some damage in turbulent
> wind gusts. Is the limiting factor here the carbon-fiber
> pole strength, or some design subtlety such as catenary cut?
> After all, the similar looking (but heavy) macpac olympus
> can withstand high winds.
I started with a Macpac Olympus, but they are heavy. I suspect the Olympus might have suffered damage in the same place.
What happened was a freak combination of events.
I was pitched right under a very steep bank.
During the night it started to snow (silently) and about a foot of snow built up on the tent. I was not expecting this – it was autumn, not winter and the evening had been sunny and dry.
Then a strong wind started up and the high bank above the tent started to shed strong gusty vortices straight down onto the tent.
The result was a sudden, very strong, downward load, far beyond the effect of the normal snow loading. This is very dangerous for ANY tent as none of them are designed to take a high loading straight downwards.
The roof pushed down and the poles pushed outwards, beyond the permitted curvature. There was a cannon boom as two of them snapped. REALLY loud!
However, with just a little help the tent stayed up for the rest of the night, through the rest of the storm.

> Could you make your 3-pole tent bombproof by using some of
> the high-strength easton carbon fiber poles that were used
> in the rab summit raider?
I have some Easton samples and will be testing them.
However, the far better way to prevent this from happening again is an internal guy rope across the inside between the corners. This prevents the poles from bowing out under load. We used these guys in France when pitched near Le Brevent in some rather bad weather. (Lead photo of Mt Blanc taken from tent site.) The tent stayed like a rock!

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Chris

Continuing – one item at a time.

> Your tent is made of silnylon, and you mention that you haven't been impressed with spinnaker fabrics.
I made up one tent using some slightly lighter Dimension Polyant spinnaker fabric. It was very noisy in the wind. The fabric was stiffened for use on spinnakers, and did it rustle!
Also, I had concerns about the stiffened coating cracking and leaking over time.

> Have you examined a sample of the 0.95 oz spinnaker available from thru-hiker and mld
No. I guess I should get a sample.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

> What do you think of the pole setup at the front of the tarptent squall 2? It uses two poles plus a horizontal strut. Something like that might reduce the cost of the end product.

First of all, let me say that Henry's tarp-tents seem to be about the best I have seen from America. But then, some of the big-name tents seem like cheap Chinese crap to me. The designs on some of the big-name tents were obsolete 30 years ago.

However, the Squall 2 is rather like my 2-pole version, and I KNOW that my 2-pole tent is a lot less robust in bad weather compared to my 3-pole design. After all, I have made and tested both versions.

Yes, you could make changes which would make the tent cheaper to make. But cost was not really an item on my list. I wanted really good performance and really light weight for two people. I think I got what I wanted.

cheers

[Roleigh Martin]

Roger, how well does the Taslan pants work in hot/dry weather hiking like that on the JMT in early August? I'm thinking if they work fine (just as well as Nylon hiking pants), that I might just use the Taslan pants for both dry and wet weather pants if they dry off as fast as you say. Does the rain permeate the pants when it rains, how do the pants hold up in rain (during the rain) versus nylon hiking pants (which are not advertised as rain hiking pants).

Thanks.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Roleigh

That is not such a simple question, although the fast answer is that they dry very quickly and would be suitable.

Taslan fabric is nylon, so it isn't the material the fibre is made from which matters here.

I suspect that when you write 'nylon hiking pants' You may mean some of the smooth or glossy ones? A key factor here is the nature of the thread making the fabric. The very smooth nylon fabrics have plain straight fibres, tightly woven, but Taslan uses an 'air-textured fibre'. (You can check at Wiki.) What this means is that the surface of Taslan (or Tahoe, another name for it) fabric is rough, knobby, textured, not smooth or shiny, whatever.

The difference becomes very significant when the fabric is wet – from rain or sweat. A smooth nylon will stick to your skin and feel uncomfortable. When sticking to your skin the fabric will also trap a lot of moisture between itself and your skin. It will also limit perspiration. As a result it can seem slow to dry.

But the rough surface of Taslan means the fabric does not stick to your skin. It does not feel clammy and does not trap water either. So it feels better and dries faster than a smooth nylon. Also, surprisingly, the texture means that water is not so easily retained inside the fabric.

I have had my trousers (and my top) quite wet, and seen the water drain downwards at a speed which is almost visible – sort of. If I get wet to the pocket level crossing a river in fine weather, I just don't worry because I know that I will be substantially dry down to the knees in about 15 minutes (if I continue walking).

Around Sydney we have the problem that the humidity is always high – often between 70% and 80%. This stretches drying times significantly. If you are going to be in lower humidity the Taslan will dry very fast indeed.

hth
cheers

[Chris Jackson]

> I KNOW that my 2-pole tent is a lot less robust in bad
> weather compared to my 3-pole design. After all, I have
> made and tested both versions.

Roger, thanks for answering all my tent questions. Here's another one (-:

What's the lightest pole setup for a reasonably wind-stable 1-man, 1-vestibule tent? Can you get away with two poles, including a single vertical pole at the (low) foot-end?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Chris

> lightest pole setup for a reasonably wind-stable 1-man, 1-vestibule tent? Can you get away with two poles, including a single vertical pole at the (low) foot-end?

You are expecting a simple answer?????
I imagine every vendor in the market place would like to sell you their solution to this, and probably every offering would be different. (Most would be very suspect too.) :-)

The problem is that with only 2 poles and a tunnel sort of design, the unsupported fabric span between the poles is going to be at least 5 feet. This is a very long span for light fabric to sustain, and the poles are going to get a very high loading. If you go to a single pole dome design the pole is so long that it can collapse more easily than you might like.

Add to this the question of what constitutes 'reasonably wind-stable' – just how stable, and just how strong a wind?
It is likely that many (if not all) 2-pole tents are going to turn into bivy bags under high winds, with the fabric resting on the sleeping bag. The poles may, or may not, pop back up when the wind stops.

Of course, if you are only measuring the pole, you could end up with an Antarctic pyramid tent with just the one vertical centre CF pole. But the tent gets a bit heavy … :-)

I know many parts of America have fine weather with little chance of rain for half the year – lovely stuff, and pleasant easy camping. Anything goes. I have had sleet and snow and 60+ mph winds in our Australian Alps at the very peak of summer. When do you leave the UL tarp behind and take a bomber mountain tent? YOUR CHOICE!

[Mike Hinsley]

If you have a trekking pole use it!

I've made some poles out of stock aluminum tubing for a solo tent. It's about twice the weight of Easton treated tubing but being soft can be unbent if necessary and is a lot less bendy – most tent poles are designed to bend. Bend is bad for a tarp.

I've made a front pole out of 1m of 10mm o/d tubing topped off with 8mm tubing to give a 1.25m pole weighing at 108g. Long Tarp Pole

For the rear pole I've made a 65cm pole which is 10, 8 and 6mm stock tubes stacked. Short Tarp Pole

Both poles have withstood some heavy weather on hilltops.

I use the poles externally so that if it is windy they can move around a little.

If you are feeling rich then a Carbon Fiber trekking pole such as the Stix will weigh in at around 100g and be dual use.

Using carbon fiber tubing would more than halve the pole weights but will be a bit more fragile. I've had trouble finding a tube supplier for larger diameter (not kite spar) tubing.

If you were to use imperial sized tubing then the tubes will probably nest without work which would make construction easier….

[Chris Jackson]

> > lightest pole setup for a reasonably wind-stable 1-man,
> > 1-vestibule tent? Can you get away with two poles,
> > including a single vertical pole at the (low) foot-end?

> You are expecting a simple answer?????
> I imagine every vendor in the market place would like to
> sell you their solution to this, and probably every
> offering would be different. (Most would be very suspect
> too.) :-)

> The problem is that with only 2 poles and a tunnel sort of
> design, the unsupported fabric span between the poles is
> going to be at least 5 feet. This is a very long span for
> light fabric to sustain, and the poles are going to get a
> very high loading. If you go to a single pole dome design
> the pole is so long that it can collapse more easily than
> you might like.

> Add to this the question of what constitutes 'reasonably
> wind-stable' – just how stable, and just how strong a
> wind? It is likely that many (if not all) 2-pole tents
> are going to turn into bivy bags under high winds, with
> the fabric resting on the sleeping bag. The poles may, or
> may not, pop back up when the wind stops.

> Of course, if you are only measuring the pole, you could
> end up with an Antarctic pyramid tent with just the one
> vertical centre CF pole. But the tent gets a bit heavy …
> :-)

> I know many parts of America have fine weather with little
> chance of rain for half the year – lovely stuff, and
> pleasant easy camping. Anything goes. I have had sleet and
> snow and 60+ mph winds in our Australian Alps at the very
> peak of summer. When do you leave the UL tarp behind and
> take a bomber mountain tent? YOUR CHOICE!

Roger, good answer, though not what I was hoping to hear. My wishful thinking is that in a 1-man 1-vestibule tent you can make the pole at the foot-end pretty short. This obviously improves the stability when the wind direction is from the foot-end. The $64 question is whether there is also a significant improvement when the wind is side-on?

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Chris

> good answer, though not what I was hoping to hear.
I'm good at that :-)

> My wishful thinking is that in a 1-man 1-vestibule tent you can make the pole at the foot-end pretty short.
Well, that is fair enough, but then it becomes hard to distinguish between a tent, a tarp-tent (Henry Shires style) and a large bivy bag.

> This obviously improves the stability when the wind direction is from the foot-end.
I would not bet on that. I suspect that the long unsupported middle would press down onto your SB when the wind gets high.

> The $64 question is whether there is also a significant improvement when the wind is side-on?
My experience is that side-on is always worse.

A lot depends on whether you can find good shelter for your tent. And if it is a 2-day 1-night trip, you can put up with an awful lot, even a damp SB in the morning.

No simple answers, ever.

Cheers

[Frank Deland]

Thorough report! Just a word on the Packa asked on the top of page 2. I have used it a lot on the AT. It works as described. It is not too bulky to be worn alone. The extra fabric which makes up the pack cover has a shock cord strand around it to help keep it taut, and the excess is only between the shoulders and the lower back, so it does not get in the way. One drawback is if you have to take your pack off, you have to remove the rain gear. Or you have to do some gyrating to get the pack off without removing the Packa. So, in the rain either you or your pack is going to get wet if you have to remove your pack. However, having your tarp handy can get the pack quickly covered again. I do like the Packa better than a poncho, because the Packa has sleeves. The Packa also hangs almost to my knees keeping my shorts covered in the rain. For me, its main advantage is not having to go into the pack to get my rain gear or to put it away. It just is tucked conveniently under the pack cover section. IMO it is a great piece of gear. (It is now made with a waterproof zipper.)

[Steven Tomson]

This was a great report. Very informative and well written. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. Hondo

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