Winter Layering for legs at Camp

[CARLOS C.]

I need guidance since I am not quite sure If I have enough insulation for my lower body for my upcoming trip. I run pretty warm/hot when I am hiking so I am not worried about that. When I slow down at camp I don't have a lot of natural insulation and get cold. What I am concerned about is not having enough warmth if I have to hang out at camp in a fairly static state(it is a group trip). I will be going to the Canaan Valley in the second week of December. I imagine that temperatures will be somewhere between 0 and 20 after dark plus wind. And perhaps anywhere from 20 to freezing during the day with wind. The pants and insulation layers I currently own for bottoms are as follows. Paradox Lightweight base layer(merino blend) bottom 159.0g Army R1 fleece base layer pants 269.0g Minus33 Mid Weight Merino Bottoms 280.0g Columbia Royce Peak pants 320.0 Black Wind/Rain pants 169.0 I rarely need baselayers under pants until it gets below freezing so I was thinking of wearing the paradox layer with the R1 layer over top of it with the Royce Peak pants on top. If I encountered excessive wind or rain add the additional pant on top. I am worried that this will not be enough is a static state if the temps get into the single digits plus wind. If it is not do you recommend for a limited budget polartec 200 fleece bib pants with side zippers as good enough or do I need to get into synthetic insulation like the M65 insulated pant liners? They are both similar in price (not sure in weight or bulk) I would like to be able to easily throw it on top without too much fanfare. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Stephen M]

If you look on ebay you can get military Patagonia Micro puff Pants for about 80$.

[CARLOS C.]

Are you talking about the gen iii primaloft pants? If so I was under the impression those were very heavy?

[Stephen M]

The ones I have are 480 grams in xl. Search for Patagonia Micro puff pants.

[Aubrey W. Bogard]

The M65 liners are good to go for budget camp/sleep pants. Get the long length for lower-leg coverage.

[CARLOS C.]

Stephen I am confused are these the pants you have or the weight you listed was for the micro puffs

[Stephen M]

These ones. 60$ for an xl. Search other sizes. http://m.ebay.com/itm/Patagonia-Mens-Micro-Puff-Pants-MARS-L7-Alpha-Green-XL-Style-19018-/272030988134?nav=SEARCH

[Billy Ray]

"…if the temps get into the single digits plus wind." Under those conditions you will likely retreat to your sleeping bag. billy

[Jeremy and Angela]

Carlos, the gray ones in the photo you posted are indeed rather heavy; I just weighed a pair (Medium, Long) at 948g. I'm assuming the Micropuff ones will be much lighter.

[CARLOS C.]

Thanks everyone for your insights suggestions and advice. I was able to find a guy locally that has the m65 liners without the buttons but has modified them and added buttons so it should be relatively the same weight or an ounce or two more. And for 12 dollars. My hesitation was a DIY project but this seems to have the work done for me so I look forward to their arrival. I will let you all know when they arrive and how they work out. Now I just need snow and cold cold weather to give my system a real test.

[David R.]

There are also Western Mountaineering Flash Down Pants which are a bit pricy but very warm. And I believe other manufacturers such as Monte Bell make them too. And here is a pair of down pants from China on ebay for only $65 although I've seen some ugly photos of what they do to geese to get down and it leaves me rather sick. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MenWomen-Unisex-Outdoor-Winter-Thermal-Ultralight-Gray-Goose-Down-Pants-Trousers-/191704747800?var=&hash=item2ca27e4f18:m:m5Bxh9zZxx7cz7GlMU62b1w

[Bob Moulder]

>>>other manufacturers such as Monte Bell make them too. Yes, Montbell has a couple of down pants, but IMO the TEC Down pants are the way to go because they have full side zips, which are mandatory when it's seriously cold.

[CARLOS C.]

I highly value the full length zips. However the budget does not allow for it now. One day perhaps.

[Billy Ray]

"…because they have full side zips, which are mandatory when it's seriously cold." Actually full side zips make the pants less warm… the warmest pants would not have full side zips… Side zips are for ease of on and off; not warmth… But side zips certainly are very convenient and make them easier to put on and take off without removing boots, snow shoes, skis, etc… billy

[Tipi Walter]

I have a nice pair of WM Flight down pants which I use for winter camping and they have the full length zips which I do not need so next time I'll get a pair of down pants without the zips. Not as warm as mentioned, zips never used, and more weight. In camp use only, never hike in them, even at below zero temps.

[Bob Moulder]

Exactly. Getting them on quickly is a huge part of the equation. You can freeze your ass off if it takes too long and requires too much effort to don them, which also invites delay and therefore a worsening of the situation. But if designed properly, with an insulated flap behind the zipper, the warmth differential can be very minimal. And in the scheme of things, 0°F isn't all that cold.

[Bob Moulder]

I've hiked in them exactly once, when it was -35°F in the Adirondacks. Very handy to have the side zips to vent.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I'd go for a pair of down pants AND a lighter sleeping bag (say 0 F. or maybe -5 F.) that can be paired with down pants and jacket. That way the pants and jacket do double duty and you save precious weight.

[Bob Moulder]

a pair of down pants AND a lighter sleeping bag Great minds… :^) I use mine with a down parka (EB StormDown) and a +20°F EE Enigma and a fine-tuned sleep pad set-up, and have slept totally comfortably down to -6°F. YMWPV (Your Mileage Will Probably Vary). Quite a bit. I did a lot of testing to tweak my system for me. Highly subjective when it comes to genuinely cold weather and what actually works for each individual.

[David R.]

I was just out with my 0* EE Enigma and my WM Flash down pants and my butt was cold at 20*F so yes your mileage may very. My feet we just fine in wool socks and my upper body was comfortable in a 200 weight wool base layer but I wish my WM down pants had more down in the butt area. Just saying…

[Bob Moulder]

Then they'd have to pay a royalty to Kim Kardashian. Profit margins and all that…

[David Thomas]

>"Very handy to have the side zips to vent." The first year I was in Alaska, I did a modest amount of dog mushing. Harness dogs. Ride on sled (motionless but with 10-15 mph breeze). Run up hill. Rest the dogs. Etc. Side zips were a very convenient way to vent heat and then quickly zip up. Because my legs didn't mind sub-zero winds as much as some other of my parts, I liked to wear fleece boxers under my full-zip pants, (or more commonly, full-leg-zip down coveralls). It's hard to find a place to sit down to change pants during snow travel. Getting skis or snowshoes and and off is a pain. "Best practices" by Inuit long before "best practices" was jargon was to "never sweat". When I am proactive enough to avoid sweating, I stay drier, my clothes are drier and lighter, and I'm comfortable throughout my trip.

[Bob Moulder]

Ventilation before Perspiration :^) People who don't hike/ski/backpack/climb (or mush!) are always surprised when they ask "What's the biggest problem in the winter?" and then hear the answer: "Overheating". re Inuit… Not for nothing (and as I'm sure you know), Roald Amundsen was first to the South Pole — and lived to tell about it — because he was humble enough to learn everything he could directly from the Greenland Inuit. Always ticks me off to see the near-deification of RF Scott.

[Tipi Walter]

David Rodriguez—Reason I went with the heavier Flight down pants.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

David, I know Eskimos (OK, Inuit) have used fur "shorts" over their fur pants in extreme cold. Seems it gives more insulation to the thighs/femoral arteries. So your mention of fleece shorts under down pants is very similar. I have a pair of 200 wt. fleece pants that have shrunken a bit in length over a decade of laundering and I think they will become knee length "under shorts" this winter. Just need to un stitch a fly area in the front. P.S. For -10F. and lower I have found that nothing beats polar weight polyester long johns base layer then 200 wt. fleece pants with Thinsulate insulated GTX alpine ski pants on top. I've worn this down to -40 F. and been warm and comfy. Of course snow at those temps is like sand and skiing is a chore.

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