Questions about winter camping in California

[David R.]

I'm a newbie winter camper but super excited to get out this year. I have a few questions and if anyone with experience might help out it's greatly appreciated. Keep in mind that I plan on taking a snow camping class this winter in preparation. Also, I've only been snowshoeing once and loved it. My cross country skiing skills are rather rusty but I hope can brush up and get out on skis in the next few years. 1) What temperatures should I prepare for? My plans are fairly modest in that I am not seeking to climb any mountains but I would love to build a snow cave to sleep in at least once or twice. 2) I have a WM badger (15degF) but its rather heavy. Are quilts going to keep me warm enough at the temperatures I will be experiencing? What degF rating should I be looking at for a quilt? 3) Is my large thermrest XTherm and a 1/8" GG thinlight foam pad enough for bottom insulation. 4) Bottoms: I have 200 weight wool base layer bottoms. I also have a pair of WM down pants, wind pants, and rain pants, and together they seem fairly reasonable for idle / camp time. But what bottoms should I be wearing for snowshoeing? Or skiing? 5) Shoes or Boots: I have Salamon Speedcross 3 trail runners, GTX lightweight boots (Zamberlan Ridge 250), and also GTX heavier boots (Zamberlan Viox 996). I'm tempted to use the lightweight GTX boots but I'm intrigued with the idea of using trail runners. I'm aware of the Forty Below Light Energy Overboot but I'm not sure my feet will stay dry in the Salamon Speedcross 3 in the overboots. Maybe I need a GTX trail runner? 7) Will my Kahtoola microspikes work with trail runners and overboots? 8) I've been looking at dedicated snow tents (hilleberg) but boy they are expensive. I purchased a MLD Duomid and I'm hoping that will be OK for most of my beginner snow camping excursions. I have a lightweight and eVent bivy available as well. Thanks again for any help with these questions. David

[Justin Baker]

I'm a newb too. I will say that the badger pass ski resort is a great place for a beginner trip, you can walk/shoe/ski on the unpaved road and stay fairly close to your car and help.

[BlackHatGuy]

First off, I'm not an experienced winter backpacker. I've never taken a class, I just decided I wanted to do it one year and so went on a multi-day trip in Michigan's Upper Peninsula with another BPLer, and liked it enough that the following year I did a trip on Minnesota's Superior Trail with another BPLer. Loved that trip too. So take my responses with a grain of salt. 1) What temperatures should I prepare for? Obviously, this really depends on where you're going, the temps at that time, the weather at that time, and how windy it is. There is no 'one' answer to this question. On my Michigan trip the overnight temps were near 0, the winds were 30 mph+, and it snowed hard on us all day one day. In Minnesota, it wasn't as cold, it wasn't as windy, and we had pretty great weather as I recall. 2) I have a WM badger (15degF) but its rather heavy. Are quilts going to keep me warm enough at the temperatures I will be experiencing? What degF rating should I be looking at for a quilt? See response one. What you need depends on the temps you'll experience. But there are many folks who use quilts in winter. I prefer bags when the temps get much below 20. And, as you know, your bag/quilt is only one aspect of your sleep system, also depends on what else you'll be wearing to bed. 3) Is my large thermrest XTherm and a 1/8" GG thinlight foam pad enough for bottom insulation. I've had the same setup on snow, in 0 to 5 degree temps, worked fine. 4) Bottoms: I have 200 weight wool base layer bottoms. I also have a pair of WM down pants, wind pants, and rain pants, and together they seem fairly reasonable for idle / camp time. But what bottoms should I be wearing for snowshoeing? Or skiing? I run warm, so take that into consideration. On the move I wear Rab Vapour Rise pants with boxer briefs, nothing else. Plenty warm enough, even when it's cold and windy. If it's cold enough, you don't have to worry about rain pants. I carry 'long johns' to put on at night. In winter, it gets dark early, we didn't do much sitting around after we ate dinner, we retreated to our shelters, so I did not carry down pants. 5) Shoes or Boots: I have Salamon Speedcross 3 trail runners, GTX lightweight boots …, and also GTX heavier boots …. I'm tempted to use the lightweight GTX boots but I'm intrigued with the idea of using trail runners. I'm aware of the Forty Below Light Energy Overboot but I'm not sure my feet will stay dry in the Salamon Speedcross 3 in the overboots. Maybe I need a GTX trail runner? On both trips I wore a thin baselayer sock, a goretex sock, a winter sock, non-GTX trail runners and the 40 Below overboots, in that order. My feet stayed warm and dry, even during short stops. I'd recommend a gaiter as well, though, as snow will get stuck on the front of the overboots if you don't. I will next time. Where's 6! 8) I've been looking at dedicated snow tents (hilleberg) but boy they are expensive. I purchased a MLD Duomid and I'm hoping that will be OK for most of my beginner snow camping excursions. I have a lightweight and eVent bivy available as well. Duomid will be fine. I used a similar shelter in Michigan (with a cuben ground sheet, no inner), and a Tarptent Moment DW in Minnesota. Both worked fine.

[Jeremy and Angela]

It's been so long since we've had winter I've forgotten most of this stuff. 1) Temperatures: I wasn't keeping too close an eye on them, but I'd assume 10-20°F at night, 30-50°F in the day. If the weather's good my main worry is overheating while on the move. 2) Sleeping bags: We used 0°F bags (EN-Limit 2°F, EN-Comfort 15°F) and they were plenty (and heavy). If buying again I might grab a 15° bag. In a proper snow cave the temperature should be around 32°F, and you can also push the limits with your parka and down pants. 3) Sleeping pads: You should be fine. I used a z-lite and an Exped Synmat UL; your setup should be warmer. 4) Bottoms: (Down pants seem nice; one of these days I'll get around to buying a pair.) I used ski pants in the past, now I'll use softshell pants for on the move. If the weather's bad I'll go back to the ski pants. With either pant I'll usually just use a silkweight baselayer unless temperatures seem particularly frigid. 5) Shoes or Boots: I once wore sneakers in a light layer of melting spring snow and my feet were very quickly cold. I fixed that with plastic bags, so my suggestion is Goretex in either your socks or your boots. Gaiters too, if your pants don't include them. We used to use GTX hiking boots with snowshoes, but are transitioning to AT skis which come with warmer boots by default. (Down booties are now tempting.) 6) I'll assume 6 is for gloves and top layers: I do mittens for warmth, thin gloves to keep the wind off in good weather, and standard ski-type gloves for the in-between. I'm still fiddling with my tops; generally it may involve a cap 3 or R1 for the base, an Atom LT for warmth on the move when it's /really/ cold, a hardshell for when it's blowing snow that then melts on me, and of course a puffy in the pack for rests. 7) Traction: haven't tried microspikes; I figure if I expect to run into hard ice I'm bringing crampons. 8) Shelters: You should be good here. The bivy will be helpful if you do a snow shelter. -J

[Roger Caffin]

> 1) What temperatures should I prepare for? Totally depends on altitude, weather, environment, etc. Be prepared anyhow for -10 C. > 2) I have a WM badger (15degF) but its rather heavy. Are quilts going to keep me warm enough That's a definite maybe. :-) bit more, with good wind overtrousers. All the way to seriously padded trousers. > 5) Shoes or Boots: Since you are new to this, I suggest the light GTX boots. > 7) Will my Kahtoola microspikes work with trail runners and overboots? Yes. > I've been looking at dedicated snow tents (hilleberg) but boy they are expensive. Funny about that. I wonder why they sell so well? A really good alpine tent able to handle whatever Huey sends will cost over $1000, and it will be worth every penny of that. We have lots of useful articles about snow camping here at BPL, Try for a start http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/caffin_snow_camping.html What I will strngly suggest is that you treat your first few snow trips as a learning exercise. Keep them short and within bail-out reach of your car. Cheers

[Dave @ Oware]

Snow can be deep or boiler plate. Conditions change fast too. Consider this when planning travel. (Think Donner Party). Avalanches are possible, get some knowledge, experience and gear for that, or plan routes well away from such terrain. I like to bring extra fuel for lots of hot drinks and a hot water bottle in my sleeping bag to dry out damp clothes and sleep well. Fires can be hard to start with seven feet of snow on the ground. Bring a shovel, extra gloves or mitts. dark glasses, sunscreen.

[Roger Caffin]

Yeah, what David wrote! Especially, allow double the amount of fuel, and don't forget the dark glasses and sunscreen. Cheers

[David R.]

Thanks Doug, Jeremy, Roger, and David for all the great perspectives, information, and suggestions! There is a lot for me to digest here.I'm reading your article Rodger and will return afterwards. And thanks for the Badger Pass suggestion Justin. Sounds like a perfect place to start. David

[Rex Sanders]

Don't count on sleeping in a snow cave the first few times you try building one. Take a tent/mid/whatever. Snow caves can take much longer than expected to find good snow in a good location, build, and decide if it's right for you. During very short days, under extra stresses. Also not a good time to discover you are claustrophobic. — Rex

[Jerry Adams]

I camp in the winter in Oregon, Washington, northern California. Rarely, I've slept on the snow, in snow cave, etc, not really my favorite conditions. Mainly, I just add a CCF pad underneath my regular sleeping pad. I can find places all year that don't have snow, so it's more like 3 season conditions. Like the Rogue River or beach of the Olympic Peninsula. Lost Coast in Northern California is on my list and would be nice. Point Reyes is good, although definitely not wilderness.

[Paul Beres]

I have a fair amount of snowcamping experience in California; though primarily I opt to go out in the spring – late April/early May – when the snowpack firms up and the skiing is best. But in the past i've gone out in midwinter as well. Lets' say you aren't going to get way out into the alpine regions, so we're talking about altitudes around 7,000 to maybe 9,000 feet. I'd plan for temperatures to be in the teens and twenties most nights, and anything from the 20's to the 60's during the day depending on the weather. A 15 degree rated bag is about right for most folks in California, but if you sleep cold you may want warmer. If you do the snow cave thing then it's going to be around 32 in the cave. Yes on the pad. When I'm skiing (which is how I get around on the snow) I wear light long johns and wind pants. I also wear shorts, mainly for the pockets, but also because sometimes it's too warm for the shell pants. I've never had my legs get cold in that setup during the day. My pants are EPIC fabric, but I used to use gore-tex pants and they were fine also as long as they are not lined (so 3-layer gore-tex fabric). The down pants will be great in camp. I would not bring rain pants, just wind pants. though if it is mid-winter then I'd be tempted to go with rain pants (if very light, and breathable) in place of the wind pants. But I can't imagine I'd ever want both. I can't help much on the footwear since I ski. Plastic boots. But when I go out hiking on the snow because there's not enough to ski on, I think the best thing I've tried is waterproof socks in trail runners. Nothing seems to keep you totally dry, but that combination seems to be the easiest to dry out overnight – you just need to dry the socks, not the shoes. But I'd keep the wet shoes under my pillow so they don't freeze solid. no experience with microspikes. Your Duomid should do just fine, just get some good snow stakes and bring a shovel. If you get a big overnight snowfall, expect to get up in the night and deal with it. And expect condensation, especially if you get a storm. Try to cook outside as much as possible mostly because cooking inside generally causes massive condensation in a single wall non-breathable shelter. A few things seem to be good to remember. One is that the cold days are the clear days. Stormy weather in the Sierra is generally somewhat warmer, but paradoxically it's harder to stay warm because it's so hard to stay dry in a snowstorm if you are exerting yourself. I find the main mistake folks make is wearing way too much clothing while on the move, so they sweat and then get chilled when they stop. Only on a very rare occasion in the winter/spring Sierra would I be wearing more than baselayer and shell while I am moving, and mostly it's baselayer and shell on the bottom, baselayer only on the top. You're going to generate a lot of heat snowshoeing or skiing. Have that extra layer handy to pull on as soon as you stop, and constantly manage the layers you have on to avoid overheating. Hand and headwear is great for managing temperature as it's the easiest thing to change, and putting on or taking off a hat can make a big change in warmth.

[Jerry Adams]

Yaktrax have these rubber bands on the bottom. If you walk on snow with some occasional rocks, they nick the band and it breaks, in my experience. Kahtoola microspikes don't have this design flaw. Yaktrax are good for just snow. Some surfaces are very slippery with microspikes. I was walking on boardwalk at Olympic Peninsula. Icy. Without microspikes it was almost impossible to walk. With microspikes no problem. Then I got to a few boards that had been recently replaced with some slippery material, plastic or something. Flat on my behind in an instant.

[David R.]

Thanks everyone for the great ideas and suggestions! A little bit further down you can find a summary of my gleanings from all your suggestions. But I have a couple more questions too: 10) Forty Below Light Energy Overboot: If I’m using a trail runner as my shoe should I get the TR (tall) or Shorty Overboot. I already own a pair of taller Rab Polartech gaiters but the tall overboots sure look nice. Also, here is an interesting system with neoprene socks inside an oversized trail runner and an insulator between the shoe and overboot: https://youtu.be/vOSfwy0ZMAg 11) Snow Stakes: I’ve read Rogers excellent articles on snow camping and stakes and I’m considering making my own. But I’m wondering if anyone has used these Toughstakes? They are only $24 for 4 which seems pretty cheap. I’m just wondering how effective the small size 9” stake might be. http://www.toughstake.com/uses/small-stake/toughstake-use-3/ 12) I’ll post a winter gear list and see what folks say. I’m sure there are a thousand ways to make a list like this lighter but I’ll be more interested in picking the right items for a good weight / usefulness / safety / comfort balance. 13) I also have questions about AT ski gear which I will put in a separate post. Summary of previous questions: 1) What temperatures should I prepare for…. 10*Fto 20*F should be the range I should plan on for night. It seems as though I will have extra stuff to put on during the day (If I run into a storm) as long as I bring enough to keep warm at night. I have down pants, parka, separate down hood, and booties just in case it gets much colder. 2) I have a WM badger (15degF) ….. I’m thinking about getting a 0*F or 10*F EE Quilt too. I really want to get comfortable with the lighter option if I can. 3) Is my large thermrest XTherm and a 1/8" GG thinlight … Sounds like this will be fine. 4) Bottoms: But what bottoms should I be wearing for snowshoeing? Or skiing….. I’ve ordered some soft shell bottoms (Loki) and will see how they fit. They may be big so I may try some other options. I want to also try wind pants and long johns which sound like a good option. 5) Shoes or Boots: ….. I’m either going with my GTX lightweight boots (Zamberlan Ridge 250) or buying a pair of GTW trail runners. And I will try the waterproof socks too. 6a) Gloves: I have smart wool liners, OR PL-400 Mittens and MLD rain mitts. I also have these uber warm fleece lined wool mittens but they may be overkill. 6b) For tops I have 150 and 200 weight wool base layers, Patagonia Piton jacket, Patagonia R1 hoody, Arc'teryx nuclei hoody and an Icebeaker Bodyfit 260 top. I’m thinking some combination of these should be fine but I’m still working on the perfect combination for active wear. Plus I have a couple of hooded down jackets (Rab Neutrino Plus – Mont Bell Mirage) to choose from for camp. 7) Kahtoola microspikes ….. will work with trail runners and overboots. 8) MLD Duomid ….. Should work fine for where I’m going. 9) I ordered a shovel (Voile Mini TelePro) and I plan on keeping away from avalanche territory until I get some experience. Thanks for pointing out that I should bring 2X as much fuel as I think I will need. I'm going to look into an emergency beacon / communicator too. Badger pass ski resort sounds like a great place to check out when the impending El Niño finally unleashes its expected rains / snow.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

If your boots have enough room for heavy socks I recommend THIS: 1. "ULTRA" VBLs -> get light neoprene diver's socks that will fit over thin polypro liner socks without pinching OR bunching. 2. Polypro liner sox -> These will prevent wear on the VBL interior and feel more comfortable. Take one pair for each day you camp OR rinse the skanky pair out at night, wring out well and place in sleeping bag to dry overnight. If well wrung out polypro dries amazingly fast. This closed cell neoprene VBL is MUCH warmer than coated nylon VBLs and won't slide down and bunch up. Be very sure you seam seal the VBLs with sealer used for polyurethane coated tents. At Night: Remove the VBLS, turn inside-out and place in the foot of your bag/quilt to dry. They will be nice and dry and warm in the morning.

[David R.]

Hey Eric, Thanks for the suggestion on VB socks. I ordered a pair of these and will see how they work out: Gator Contour Fit Neoprene Sox Socks Large http://www.bikewagon.com/gator-contour-fit-neoprene-sox-socks-large#.VjebbZ166W0.gmail Only $22 plus shipping which seems pretty good and supposedly they are seam sealed and waterproof. The reviews on amazon for winter and snowshoeing look great. I'll add a thin liner sock and maybe a heavier outer wool sock if necessary.

[USA Duane Hall]

Check the weather and expected temps a day before for the area you plan on visiting. I usually use my WM Apache 15F bag, on a full length XTherm and 2 GG pads, thicker than the one you want to use. I've been out in below zero temps, but usually in the teens or 20's. I have a WM 5F bag too for really cold trips. Sometimes I have to use snowshoes, sometimes just my Pac type boots (Sorels) are fine. I may bring down booties, but at least a pair of dry socks to switch to. My GG pad combo is one torso length and one sit pad for sitting in the kitchen area if on a group trip. Solo, I may dig a pit in front of my shelter and stick my feet in it while cooking etc. You need lots of snow to make a shelter out of snow, not much for a few years now. I have lots of down stuff, pants and jacket after camp is set up as you don't want to get chilled. Cap, gloves of course, down balaclavas/hats are available. Stay hydrated, that is supposed to help your body keep its furnace going. I collect old stoves, so I have a couple of them along all the time, about the last thing shut off and packed in the morning when temps are single digit or colder. Duane PS–My winter shelter for now is a Black Diamond Hilight, lots of frost inside on nights when the thing has to be zipped up good, some frost even when it is open 3/4. I've had to push snow away from the sides a few times during the night when it snowed overnight.

[Cameron M]

Two classic books: Allen & Mike's Really Cool Backcountry Ski Book Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills Note: If you always build fires as large as the one in your user portrait, you could consider beach attire!

[David R.]

OK thanks you guys! Thanks for the pointers Duane! I just received a 0*F quilt from EE so I'm going to try it out this weekend. I also have a bunch of down stuff: booties, hood, jacket, and pants so camp time should be cozy. I'm slowly amassing everything I need to go snow camping and I sent in my application to the Sierra Club Snow Camping class this winter and hope I get in. Cant wait to sharpen up my skiing skills and get out in the woods. I still need to research AT skis and bindings but that's probably another thread. Thanks for the book suggestions Cameron! I ordered both those books and cant wait to get into them. p.s. I was not in charge of building that fire but I was not complaining as we were at Snow Mountain Wilderness (a new national monument) in May and was pummeled for a half an hour with sleet and freezing rain. It was nice to dry everything off, including my dog, before dinner.

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