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Idaho black bear attack
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Oct 14, 2015 at 1:13 pm #1333386
"But around 2 a.m., Vouch woke up as a 227-pound, five and a half-foot bear was sinking his canines into Vouch’s head." http://www.guns.com/2015/10/13/idaho-hunter-wakes-up-with-his-head-in-a-black-bears-mouth/
Oct 14, 2015 at 1:30 pm #2231989The hunter becomes the hunted.
Oct 14, 2015 at 5:46 pm #2232069It's interesting that the bear was shot at very close range with a .45 and fled to a nearby tree before they finished him off with the rifle. Details are bare here, but it seems to lend credence to the study (referenced in the last few months on another of the many bear threads) that indicated pepper spray is statistically more effective than firearms in bear encounters gone bad.
Oct 14, 2015 at 7:58 pm #2232095"Details are bare here, but it seems to lend credence to the study (referenced in the last few months on another of the many bear threads) that indicated pepper spray is statistically more effective than firearms in bear encounters gone bad." How do you figure? It may or may not, but nothing in this encounter supports that conclusion. The bear fled. Same result as you would hope with Bear Spray.
Oct 14, 2015 at 10:12 pm #2232130True, it was probably the "BANG-FLASH" from the .45… But certainly it wasn't from a lethal shot. Hence the "SEEMS" and "STATISTICALLY" People sometimes see an agenda behind comments. Not anti-firearms, anti-2nd Amendment type here at all… not by a long shot. Retired from 30 years federal law enforcement, I'm interested in the most effective deterrent and happy to know that it might not be a Glock 22, which I carried daily for the last 12 years, or the Sig 226 before that, or the S&W 13-10 before that. People unfamiliar with firearms are also generally not aware how easy it is under real-life stress to miss their target entirely from what seems like point-blank range. Which explains all that muscle-memory-type training that law enforcement and military folks receive. This, I suspect, explains the distinct statistical advantage for pepper spray over firearms in your general, non-police type populace. With all that firearms training behind me, I'd like to think I'd fare pretty well with the Glock, but my 10% OC spray weighs 4.46oz and that's where the UL kicks in.
Oct 14, 2015 at 10:17 pm #2232132I have no agenda here either (other than in correct interpretation of the facts, stats, and studies). I just don't think you can in anyway say this specific example backs up bear spray is better than a gun to drive off a bear.
Oct 15, 2015 at 9:47 am #2232182What brand/size of OC do you use that weighs that little? Lots of bad dogs where I live and jog, not to mention bears and cougars in the backcountry. 5 ounces beats any kind of firearm I have heard of.
Oct 15, 2015 at 1:44 pm #2232222What brand/size of OC do you use that weighs that little? First Defense MK-4 Net weight is 3oz, all up 4.46oz on my scale.
Oct 15, 2015 at 1:58 pm #2232224I wonder how the OC content in the MK-4 stacks up to the 2% OC in the Fox? I carry the 4 oz (net weight) Fox. (same concentration as the Counter Assault). The extra ounce makes me fell a little better. Weighs 4.7 oz and 5.9 with the holster (a modified baton holster).
Oct 15, 2015 at 2:03 pm #2232225MK-4 is 10%
Oct 15, 2015 at 2:13 pm #2232227I'm not a chemist, but the MK-4 description says "10% of 500,000 SHU OC base". I would be suprized if the MK-4 was 5 times stronger than the Counter Assault (2%) and the Fox (2%) but perhaps. Maybe the measuring parameters are different? This is all important to me because I hike a lot in heavy bear country and they ain't scared! Where's David Thomas when you need him? Edit: The Fox says "@ 5.3 million SHU" Not sure how that equates to the MK-4
Oct 15, 2015 at 9:43 pm #2232319I'm having flashbacks to Dirty Harry. What size bear spray would he use? The Enforcer "So, it's for the penetration?"
Oct 16, 2015 at 10:21 am #2232388What size bear spray would he use? Better and Mo' Better
Oct 16, 2015 at 2:12 pm #2232419Oct 16, 2015 at 3:20 pm #2232431Monte, If a client ever spills thousands of gallons of pepper spray, I'll have to learn more about the chemistry involved (and it will be an interesting Health and Safety Plan!) From what I read on the web, OC (Oleoresin Capsicum) which can be 10-20% of the spray but varies in "strength". SHU (Scoville Heat Units) is a subjective measure of taste (on the human tongue) to compare various dry-weights of hot peppers. There are problems combining the two concepts, since OC measures the percentage oil in the spray can and SHU measures hotness in the original pepper (not the extracted oil). Still, if the manufacturer is giving honest numbers (a big "if"), then multiplying the amount of oil (OC%) by the SHU (hotness of those particular compounds) would give an approximation of, well, how hot your food would taste if you sprayed it. Alas, what we really want to know is how disabling the spray is to a bear's eyes, mucous membranes, nasal and breathing passages. Those kinds of tests seem to be conducted on law-enforcement and military versions and then only on humans. I'd accept human data (similar body weight, both omnivores) as a surrogate, but I'm not finding a Consumer Report's style comparison of off-the-shelf bear spray. Anyone know of such tests? Here's an comparison chart giving spray duration and distance, which seems like very helpful info: http://bestpepperspray.net/best-bear-spray-reviews/ I'm struck that we (reasonably) expect people to have fired their gun hundreds of times before using it in a defensive situation, but rarely do people test-fire bear spray. Kudos to those BPLers who have used expired or partially-used canisters in practice. Gun owners think nothing of going to the range and firing off $100 of ammo in a morning. So why not buy three $35 canister and test-fire two of them?
Oct 18, 2015 at 10:27 am #2232664Oct 21, 2015 at 5:53 am #2233139Bob, I hope it didn't seem like I was trying to one up you by saying my pepper spray is BIGGER than yours or that it's more POTENT than yours. I just want to make sure I have the best pepper spray possible to ward off bears and dogs. On another note, I see there's now a good troll spray on the market (some here at BPL would like to use it on me)
Oct 21, 2015 at 7:34 am #2233155LOL, not at all! :^) My comparison photo was just to tag onto Ralph's "Dirty Harry" theme… But I would seriously like to know where to get that troll spray!!
Oct 21, 2015 at 11:37 am #2233207Oct 21, 2015 at 11:42 am #2233209David, would you recommend firing the spray at something specific (hopefully inanimate) or just shooting it off?
Oct 21, 2015 at 10:18 pm #2233315Since almost every hike or other backcountry excursion I do involves carrying bear spray, I always have some "expired" stuff around. A few years back we had a serious problem dog down the street, who chased kids, cyclists (including me), old ladies on walkers, everyone. The dog and his dog pal snarled and growled and nipped and his owner said the dogs needed their "freedom" and he was not going to tie them up. I decided it was a good a time as any to test my old spray canister. So one day I headed out on my bike, and sure enough they came out ready for a chase, so I gave them a good dose. It was quite effective. Only one of the two really got a face full, the other just a bit, but they both backed off immediately. Neither has chased me since, whether I'm on bike or on foot. They've stopped chasing others as well, and just bark from their driveway. I learned a lot from that test, such as maintaining awareness of wind direction (I got just enough drift to have to cough for a few minutes), that the spray is under pressure sufficient to throw off your aim unless you're steady, that the pressure produces a startling bit of noise, that the spray is brightly colored and stains, and that you have to aim low, as though putting out a fire with an extinguisher, in order to come close to the face of a shorter animal. I've tested several since, including during a class at Denali Park with a bear expert, who gave us additional tips for its use, such as always keeping it ziploc bagged when not in holster, due to potential leakage. There's nothing like building confidence with firearms or pepper spray, preferably long before you need it. I would echo David in that it's inexpensive enough to be worth practicing with it if you plan to count on it in the field.
Oct 22, 2015 at 3:40 am #2233328Thanks for your discription on the use of the spray, I've seen videos by those who sell the item but it helps to hear from someone using it in a real situation. I've wondered about shelf life…or partial usages, but figured the replacement cost is insignificant compared with an attack requiring immediate response.
Oct 26, 2015 at 9:31 am #2234055I have test fired/discharge several canisters when they expired. I agree with David's advice to practice with them when they expire. It's also fun. Twice I failed to account for the wind and ended up getting some pepper blow back. Gave us all a good laugh as we reacted to the light pepper dose that came back at us. On the positive side it looks like it would be hard to miss one's target if you sprayed something in front of you. The canister discharges in a wide V shaped pattern similar to a fire extinguisher. I keep my canister buckled to me. From my one close encounter and reading about others it looks like the first contact from the bear might knock you down before you can deploy the pepper. With it attached I still would have a chance to use it. Otherwise I'd only be able to threaten the bear with it by pointing to it wherever it landed when I was hit.
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