Did you have an illegal campfire this weekend or recently?

[Anonymous]

"Tom asked if I would defend someone accused of starting a forest fire. Absolutely. I would change my full fee though :) As a former public defender, I feel strongly about the right to counsel no matter what the alleged is crime or who the defendant is." Fair enough. I guess my follow on question, actually my real question, since I also believe in the right to counsel, is: Would you try to get them acquitted if you knew going to trial that they were guilty?

[Ian]

I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum from Ned, and prosecuting people for campfires is pretty far outside of the scope of what I do, but I've seen a few defense attorneys get disbarred over the years for some pretty stupid stuff, most of it relating to laziness, misconduct, or gross incompetence. It's one of the more thankless jobs out there. In my world, the defendants are factually guilty of the crime 99% of the time and the defense attorney has the unenviable job of tearing the government's case apart, looking for procedural errors or in extreme cases, convincing 12 people that there's reasonable doubt. Admittedly, some cases are easier to tear apart than others due to poor report writing skills, honest mistakes made by the police, chain of custody errors, etc. My life would be a lot easier if attorneys like Ned would throw in the towel, but for the sake of civilization itself, I have a lot of respect for what he does and don't want to live in a society where defendants do not have access to competent and aggressive defense counsel.

[Dean F.]

>> I guess my follow on question, actually my real question, since I also believe in the right to counsel, is: Would you try to get them acquitted if you knew going to trial that they were guilty? I'm sure that, if the thought that he could get an acquittal, YES. That's his job. Ethically, though, he would have to do that without putting the defendant on the stand if he knew that the defendant would lie under oath by saying that he didn't start the fire. Any defense lawyer who does that needs to go to jail, let alone be disbarred. It's called "suborning perjury." My wife (the attorney) agrees very strongly with this sentiment. And, technically, as an officer of the court if he DID know that his defendant lied under oath he would have to so inform the judge, to have a mistrial called, etc., etc. In practice, though, of course no defense lawyers do this. Lawyers LOVE to point out that they have ethics committees and that lawyers can be disbarred or sued for malpractice, but the truth is that it doesn't happen NEARLY as often as it should. Certainly, lawyers don't suffer from a malpractice suit threat to the degree that doctors do. (And the US has 10x as many lawyers per capita than any other nation.)

[Anonymous]

"I'm sure that, if the thought that he could get an acquittal, YES. That's his job." So much for justice. "Ethically, though, he would have to do that without putting the defendant on the stand if he knew that the defendant would lie under oath by saying that he didn't start the fire. Any defense lawyer who does that needs to go to jail, let alone be disbarred. It's called "suborning perjury." My wife (the attorney) agrees very strongly with this sentiment." At which point any prosecutor worth his Juris Prudis would smell blood in the water and go for the jugular. "Lawyers LOVE to point out that they have ethics committees" Oxymoron?? "lawyers can be disbarred or sued for malpractice, but the truth is that it doesn't happen NEARLY as often as it should. Certainly, lawyers don't suffer from a malpractice suit threat to the degree that doctors do." Fox guarding the chicken coop syndrome. "(And the US has 10x as many lawyers per capita than any other nation.)" A sad commentary on the state of society, I'd say. Personally, I hope to go to my grave never having engaged the services of a lawyer, other than to help prepare my will.

[jimmy b]

"I hope to go to my grave never having engaged the services of a lawyer, other than to help prepare my will." Yeah, well that would be nice but personally after being permanently damaged in a car accident by a 2 time DUI driver who lost her license yet was illegally driving her mothers car and an almost unbelievable term of 3 1/2 years of being infused with diluted doses of contaminated medication from a drug company and sustaining multiple disabling injuries I and damn glad to have had and to have professional legal representation. just sayin'

[Steve Meier]

I went backpacking several years ago with my boys at Isle Royale in Michigan, the least visited national park in the country. Absolutely gorgeous. There was a no fire rule and one night we camped on a gorgeous rocky overlook and my boys wanted a fire. I resisted for quite some time but eventually relented as long as it stayed small, which it did. We cleaned up well the next day but there was a small burn mark on the rock. I was asked by a ranger a couple of days later (someone turned us in even though there were few sites where we were), I quickly admitted it, paid the $125 fine, and felt bad about being a poor example to my boys. We talked it through. First and last time I've made a fire where prohibited. Glad I got caught early on and learned my lesson.

[Ian]

"A sad commentary on the state of society, I'd say. Personally, I hope to go to my grave never having engaged the services of a lawyer, other than to help prepare my will." Yeah I hope you don't either. Had a chance to listen to a couple physicians bemoan the horrors of how litigious our country is, and that for our health care system to truly become affordable, our tort (yay!!!! I didn't type, torte!!!!) system needs to be overhauled. Sounds great. You can read the story about my friend Chris, and his then significant other Kim, in the link below. http://www.pereylaw.com/verdicts-settlements/jones-v-berry-kadlec-medical-center/ What other alternative do we have to resolve these issues in a civilized society? Even if this was to be deferred 100% to the criminal courts, attorneys still need to be involved to (hopefully) ensure that justice is served and an innocent wo/man isn't prosecuted. Steve, That was the best way to handle it.

[Anonymous]

"Yeah, well that would be nice but personally after being permanently damaged in a car accident by a 2 time DUI driver who lost her license yet was illegally driving her mothers car and an almost unbelievable term of 3 1/2 years of being infused with diluted doses of contaminated medication from a drug company and sustaining multiple disabling injuries I and damn glad to have had and to have professional legal representation." Another sad commentary on the state of society. Q.E.D.

[Anonymous]

"What other alternative do we have to resolve these issues in a civilized society? Even if this was to be deferred 100% to the criminal courts, attorneys still need to be involved to (hopefully) ensure that justice is served and an innocent wo/man isn't prosecuted." There isn't any acceptable alternative, IMO, and I am all for the system. My point was, and is, that it is a sad commentary on society that people feel forced to resort to it so frequently. Any one of us can come up with an example of the kind of egregious behavior you point out with your link, and there is no question in my mind that such behavior needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But there are also many more cases of unjustified litigation, and not only in medicine, that clog the courts or force settlements to avoid the expense of going to trial. Either way, my comment stands. To the degree that we have to resort to litigation, we have failed as a society. I think Dean's figure of 10 times as many lawyers in the US as any other country is damning proof of what I am getting at. As for myself, I have so far avoided situations where the services of a lawyer were required, and, as I said, I hope to continue that streak to my grave. Part of it is no doubt due to good fortune, but I'd also like to think that my own way of navigating life's obstacle course has had something to do with it as well.

[Ian]

In my limited experience, thankfully, a very large percentage of criminal cases do not make it to jury/bench trial. There's usually a lot of fencing between the defense/government, motions to dismiss indictment, determine eligibility for fast track, etc. In federal court, it's absolutely critical to have a defense attorney who's familiar with the sentencing guidelines, even though the judges are not bound by them any more. So even if the client is willing to accept a guilty plea, there's a ton of behind the scenes stuff the defense attorney needs to do. Edit Ok I guess I really didn't do anything to bring this discussion back on topic. Viva la Chaff.

[jscott]

Tom wrote: "Would you try to get them acquitted if you knew going to trial that they were guilty?" The corollary is, would a prosecutor convict if he or she knew the defendant was innocent? The Innocence Project lends credence to the notion that this does happen with some frequency. Prosecutors' reputations are built on convictions; "wins". Maybe if "a just outcome" was the defining notion, and if careers could be built on this criteria, we'd have a better system. but the reality is: overcrowded courts, no money for public defense attorneys, etc. etc. Best to stay out of the justice system if possible. My favorite opening line of a novel: Gaddis' A Frolic of His Own: "Justice? you want justice? Justice is for the next world; in this world, we have the law."

[Anonymous]

"The corollary is, would a prosecutor convict if he or she knew the defendant was innocent?" I would have the same question for a prosecutor if the subject came up here. Your point is well taken. Even more egregious, IMO, is when exculpatory evidence comes to light later, and the prosecution refuses to reopen the case. Innocent men have been sent to their death on more than one occasion for this. In such cases, I personally would like such prosecutors to follow in their footsteps. But that's just my 2 inflammatory cents. "Viva la CHAFF" +1 :0)))

[jimmy b]

"I personally would like such prosecutors to follow in their footsteps. But that's just my 2 inflammatory cents." Yes, and not just prosecutors. I remember news of Governor Rick Perry sending a man to his maker as he refused to take into consideration evidence in a case of a man accused of burning his family to death in a house fire. This was after several forensic evidence professionals debunked the botched investigation by a less educated fire inspectors report. So not really that inflammatory when you consider the stakes.

[Dean F.]

>> So much for justice. Should I then refuse to treat the wounds of a pedophile who was caught in the act when they bring him to my hospital? No. It's my JOB. I don't get to make those calls. I have to make life-or-death decisions on occasion (triage can be soul-crippling) but not by THOSE criteria. Not that you were really saying that- that was a pretty blatant straw man on my part. :) I will admit, however, that the nurses tend to not be very gentle in such cases. Same goes for the fatal drunk drivers or people who shoot cops. What can I say?- we're all human… My wife likes the prosecutor model in a lot of continental countries. There the prosecutor's job is to Find The Truth, not to Win Cases. To some extent that is the judge's job, too, but that conflicts with the anglophone model wherein judges are neutral.

[Larry De La Briandais]

"Should a defense attorney defend someone he knows is guilty?" Why should it be up to him to decide? Knowledge is not as absolute as it sounds. You can know something and be wrong. Deciding whether someone is guilty should not be up to the attorneys. That's what the system is for, as bad as it is. Same for the doctor. You know the person is a pedophile, but you could be wrong. As an example, a friend of mine took his pregnant daughter to the hospital when she went into labor. ALL of the staff were treating him EXTREMELY poorly and he couldn't figure out why. They were treating his daughter wonderfully. When she hugged him and said "thanks for bringing me in Dad", everything was suddenly great. She was his step daughter, Asian and obviously quite a bit younger than him. He is an "older white guy". They must have assumed he was the father of the baby. And I'm sure they "knew" he was the father of the baby…

[Jonathan Patt]

In southeastern Arizona, fires are generally legal except in May and June most years. This year there was no fire ban at all due to late spring rains on a fairly regular interval keeping things more damp than usual. It was the first Memorial Day weekend people could remember here where it was legal to have a fire in the forest. I have no problem having a fire in an established fire ring when there are no fire restrictions in place, and sometimes do. I would never when fire restrictions are in place, however. The last few major fires here have been human-caused (drug smugglers rather than recreational hikers/backpackers, though), and the most recent one was the most destructive ever known in this range, covering almost 100% of it at varying intensity over two months.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Report this behavior whenever you can and try to get photos of the culprits in a "stealthy-friendly" way. As stated earlier, these people, clueless or not, are criminals, ESPECIALLY in the drought-besieged west and south east. WE must be the responsible ones to deter/report the irresponsible others.

[Kattt]

"……….try to get photos of the culprits in a "stealthy-friendly" way" Don't even know where to begin here. I will leave it with a strong -1

[Jerry Adams]

Best to talk to people about why it's unsafe to build a fire. Shame them into doing the right thing. Maybe they'll think you're an official. If, for example, it was a bunch of young adult males with beer and guns – maybe best to just avoid.

[Taiga]

http://kriswilder.com/resources/the-87-fold-path-to-being-the-best-martial-artist/the-87-fold-path-chapter-71/

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

In the Los Padres National Forest, often they wrap the designated fire pits with plastic trash bags so people know it's illegal. They'll hike in to some of the closer campsites. In our area there's a tradition of hiking to campsites, not as much a tradition of camping anywhere. Still people do stupid stuff. A couple summers ago some picnickers dumped their hot coals in the bushes and started a fire.

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