Did you have an illegal campfire this weekend or recently?

[USA Duane Hall]

Was there any signage at the TH board, advising no campfires? I was out this weekend again and did not check for signs, but I wasn't going to have a campfire anyway, as I knew it was hazardous, but people on both sides of me and across the lake had fires. I was thinking, it is still too dry, did they lift restrictions? NO!! I didn't mention to them as I wasn't sure of conditions myself. At the TH, clearly posted, was signage regarding that. Only thing I don't like, who goes to the info board, when the trail is on the other side of the road, 100' away? I wish the FS would post a sign by the TH marker. May not help. I live in the woods in N CA, so I'm usually aware of conditions, either fire restrictions or wood cutting conditions. I was in the Loch Leven Lakes area, on the Tahoe NF, a few miles from I-80. I was at the lake that does not get used heavily like it seemed the other two get. Could not believe how many people camped at the other lakes, many 10' from the lake. Positive side, I saw a black bear just as I got up on Saturday AM. It moved pretty fast when it took off, about 100' from my shelter. :) Duane

[John Klinepeter]

Not California, but Glacier Park, Montana. Just as this summer's big fire was starting to get a foothold east of Logan Pass I went for a dayhike on the west side of the Park with a volunteer ranger. We ran into a group of guys who were camped outside an established camp (not good) and they were cooking their meal on a wood fire (really really not good). They were met at the trail head by a ranger who cancelled the remainder of their permit and issued a fine(s). Nice group of guys, guess they were just clueless.

[USA Duane Hall]

Glad to hear they were fined, no talking their way out of that from what I understand, cut and dried. You'd think they would think, "there is a fire there, can we have a campfire here?" Duh? Money is stretched, people can get away with stuff. On my vacation there in July, I had dry shoes and socks for about 35 minutes in five days of hiking. Duane PS: In my first post, I should have added that when I got back to my car, I read the info board then to see if there were any fire restrictions.

[Billy Ray]

I have encountered a couple of camps having fires this summer. I think some people just figure it's okay because they will be careful. Others just don't care what the government says, they are going to do what they want, regardless. And it seems to me that fire out camping is some kind of primordial thing that goes beyond people's reasoning. Seems to be some deep emotional thing about having a fire out in the woods. It's easy for me… (sort of)… I used to love to have a camp fire. But now the smoke gives me migraine headaches… 3 days of pain. So it's easy for me to not have a fire :(( billy

[jscott]

Billy, I'm the same way, although I don't get migraines. I just don't like breathing campfire smoke for hours on end. That said, in the early Spring, when it's cold and night falls early and I'm hiking solo and there's still snow around, I like a small fire to while away the hours and keep warm until 9:00 p.m. bedtime. But you have to walk away from your fire, turn your back to the light and wait 10 minutes or more before the stars all pop out! In this year's drought, of course, any campfire anytime is too much. Big groups who like to whoop it up over a big fire mystify me. A small fire when you're alone can be slightly hypnotic and help calm and quiet the mind. edit: I'm talking about a small fire in wet spring conditions with snow patches still around! Otherwise, I never have a fire. All smoke, no need.

[Richard Lyon]

A truly serious problem when the fire danger is High or Extreme, really anytime. In my long experience in the Northern Rockies, often working with the Forest Service or Park Service, I think the illegals fall into two categories – those who are clueless, and those who believe that for some reason the rules don't apply to them. In the latter category have been some stock outfitters [many have clients who expect fires, others who seem to believe that they are entitled], Boy Scouts [whose leaders seem to believe they are entitled], and woodstove users [who claim that these aren't 'fires']. A fine will straighten out the clueless but not the entitled. Much worse than trespassing [sometimes called stealth camping on BPL], another entitlement problem, for obvious reasons. An illegal campsite can be cleaned up, a forest fire might destroy thousands of acres. Check the regs and current orders before you head out. It's your responsibility whether it's posted at the trailhead or not.

[John Klinepeter]

One more Glacier Park incident from August 14, again day hiking with a volunteer ranger. We were checking a campground and I discovered a fire pit in one of the tent sites. This was at a campground that NEVER allows wood fires, much less fires in a tent site in mid August with fire restrictions. Difficult to know exactly when the fire pit had been used. I would like to know how they dug the pit–potty trowels or rocks? It was over one foot deep. I found a shovel (they are there if you know where to look) and cleaned the mess, filled in the pit as best I could. I took dirt from fallen tree root balls; seemed to be the least obtrusive way of gathering fill. Yes, maybe they knew about the shovel, too. For those who don't know, GNP camp sites consist of separate and distinct functional areas: tent areas, a food prep area, horse hitching area, outhouse, food hang area.

[USA Duane Hall]

I was in Lassen VNP a few weeks ago, no fires at any time are allowed. I day hiked from my car campsite to Widow Lake, late enough start to have lunch there. I ate where someone had a recent campfire. Plus, it was too close to the small lake. So dry there. :( I'll have a campfire sometimes, if there is plenty of firewood when bping, or if I can car camp and bring wood from home when conditions warrant. Something to do before going to bed, or if unable to have a fire, I collect stoves and lanterns, so can light a couple lanterns. I've run across folks who said, when they go camping, they have a campfire, it is tradition. Things change. Wake up. Duane

[Jake J]

I ran across two groups of people at the Spruce Grove Trail camp that had small fires yesterday morning here in the front country of Angeles National Forest while hiking up the trail to Mt Wilson to get a feel for a new pack. It's well signed at the trail head and the campground that only stoves are allowed with a campfire permit and campfires are not. No rangers around and no cell service.. When I came back down both fires were dead out and the campsites were cleared out..

[Edward Jursek]

Dude, I am a criminal defense lawyer. Anyone who would actually answer this question in the affirmative and in writing on a public forum is the sort of person that keeps lawyers like me employed!

[Paul Beres]

Reminds me of the time I was up in the Grouse Lakes area a few years back. Extreme fire danger. Big signs at all trailheads AND also a short ways down the trail, saying no fires. And every single campsite I saw had a fire going. EVERY ONE. Not only that but we arrived at one site and found the smoldering remains of a fire in the ring which required some effort to extinguish. It would have been pretty hard to miss the signs on your way in.

[Paul Wagner]

Too much trouble, to much work to really put out properly, completely illegal where we camp, and too dangerous these days. But yes, we often see knuckleheads ignoring all of the above.

[Stuart .]

Last month I was questioned by a volunteer ranger in James Peak Wilderness as I hiked out. What had I used for cooking? (canister stove) Was I aware that use of alcohol stoves and burning wood was banned this summer? (yes, but I didn't recall seeing it posted at the TH) Had I seen any fire rings? (no). He was heading up to the popular campsites to dismantle any he found, and remove the rocks used to discourage others from rebuilding them. That seems like a wise move. Anywhere I've camped this summer, fire rings have had so much cr4p in and around them. At one site an eejuts had cut down a fresh 10' tree limb and attempted to burn it whole. The bottom 2' in the fire ring was charred, the remainder extended beyond the ring on the bare ground. In my mind, fire rings promote bad behaviour. By the end of summer, once pristine sites look like hell.

[Kattt]

"I am a criminal defense lawyer. Anyone who would actually answer this question in the affirmative and in writing on a public forum is the sort of person that keeps lawyers like me employed!" ^^^^^ I have had no fires at all, but who would admit to that? ;)

[Ralph Burgess]

if I LIT IT…

[jimmy b]

We have never had fires anywhere during 3 season BPing or front country camping and only a handful in the dead of winter. I for one would like to see a movement toward making campfires a thing of the past in the backcountry and a lot of thought to eliminating them all together from areas where that could be regulated. My belief is that it would go a LONG way to preventing accidental fires and cleaning up some of the crappy looking high use areas. I was in heaven at the BC camp sights we stayed at in Glacier this year. I didn't see a spec of micro trash, unauthorized fire rings or any signs of abuse like carving graffiti in the benches, privies ect. Not so on the AT and ADK shelters around here. Fires, I'm afraid, are a big deal to the week end party crowds that seek out the close by shelters and trash the hell out of them. Graffiti, broken glass everywhere, big trash like bags and clothing left behind. If no fires would eliminate even a fraction of that crowd I'm for it but sadly there is little to no enforcement in these areas. And of course the honest folks that obey the rules are never to blame for the mess. Very very sad… jimmyb

[Roger Caffin]

At some stage it ceases to be 'clueless' and becomes 'criminal'. I think the current weather has taken us over that threshold. I would like to see more prosecutions. Cheers

[Anonymous]

"Anyone who would actually answer this question in the affirmative and in writing on a public forum is the sort of person that keeps lawyers like me employed!" So, would you defend someone who admitted starting a forest fire?

[jimmy b]

"Dude, I am a criminal defense lawyer. Anyone who would actually answer this question in the affirmative and in writing on a public forum is the sort of person that keeps lawyers like me employed!" my guess is this answers your question. I would think he would be obligated to at least think about it, someone has to do it. jimmyb

[Anonymous]

"my guess is this answers your question. I would think he would be obligated to at least think about it, someone has to do it." No offense intended, but I'm more interested in what Edward thinks.

[Ian]

When I was hiking the Seven Devils a couple weeks ago, the air was pretty thick with smoke (packing as I type this and noticed my poncho still smells like smoke). Before the smoke shifted our way, we had a pretty good view of the forest fire east of us and on the other side of HW95. This was one trip where I really thought long and hard about our evacuation/bug-out options if a fire were to spark near us. There were zero signs at the parking lot or the trail head. First night was spent nearish a young couple who of course had a camp fire. I don't know if they fell into the "completely clueless" or "rules don't apply to my camping experience" group. I agree with the OP. I really don't know why there weren't signs conspicuously posted near the trail head. For less than $100 in materials and labor, seems like taxpayer money well spent.

[Richard Lyon]

### At some stage it ceases to be 'clueless' and becomes 'criminal'. ### It's criminal whether the offender is clueless or not. As I noted earlier a fine will ordinarily clue in the clueless. It's those who consider themselves entitled regardless of regulations or common sense that are the problem. Regrettably the Forest Service and Park Service can't police every campsite, especially with all the firefighting they are doing this summer. A few prosecutions would help, suspending guilty outfitters' rights for a time might help. Responsible campers shouldn't hesitate in reporting violators. But banning alcohol and adding more signs won't solve the real problem.

[USA Duane Hall]

Campfires have been banned in N CA in the Desolation Wilderness for maybe 20 years now and more likely longer. I cut my teeth so to speak there, some of my earliest trips in the mid '70's, cooking over a small fire. I have still seen campfires and where campfires are still being made, but on a much reduced level. I did report to the FS a few years ago after I got back to "town", that I had seen a campfire that AM and someone was headed there later that day. Suzie Lake is where I saw the campfire and at least one recently used firepit, just a few feet from the shore. :( In recent years, the cleanest states where I have bped are CO and MT, very clean campsites. CA is still ridiculous in places. Duane

[Edward Jursek]

I agree with Roger, there should be more prosecutions. Tom asked if I would defend someone accused of starting a forest fire. Absolutely. I would change my full fee though :) As a former public defender, I feel strongly about the right to counsel no matter what the alleged is crime or who the defendant is. Now that I am in private practice, the only consideration is financial, although I still take public defense cases when the public defender has a legal conflict.

[Justin Baker]

"rules don't apply to my camping experience" I don't think anyone literally thinks that the rules don't apply to them. They choose to violate the rules and understand that they could be ticketed. They don't actually think they would get off without a ticket if they were caught… unless they are really stupid.

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