Purifying water (with dead things in it)

[Shane Watts]

In preparation for Philmont, I've been reading forums and blogs. One caught my attention when it showed pictures of water "buffalo" tanks absolutely teaming with algae and sediment–one even showed three bloated, rotting rodent corpses floating on the surface! Now, even if I'm man enough to drink purified rodent corpse stew, I'm thinking I'll have a hard time convincing the crew that a bandana and Micropur tablet can defeat the cauldron of death. Any thoughts on this? Are water sources in some camps really this bad?

[Tony Ronco]

LOL … You're looking for a solution to a problem that is not a Philmont problem.
Philmont's approved water sources are springs, streams and wells (the tanks for which are fiberglass or made from polyethylene). Check out the Water Board for status of each source in your Trek (take a picture) during your visit to Logistics when they review your Trek with your crew leader.

Remember Philmont is not trully a wilderness experience. You go there to enjoy the great programs they have at each camp. Because of that, it is more controlled experience (which is ultimately liability / safety driven)

The problem you've identified is more of one for desert / arid terrain hiking and using cattle tanks or desert seeps. Here is a CDC Guide on Backcountry Water Treatment Methods … that will get you started.

You might want to repost your question in the Philosophy & Technique forum or the Food, Hydration, and Nutrition forum

[Jeremy and Angela]

Looks like he's just doing the backstroke to me…

-J

[Bean]

This might be the saddest thing I've seen all week.

[Billy Ray]

Just consider it a protein drink :)

billy

[Shane Watts]

Thanks for the great info. Still, I wonder about this line from the blog I was reading:

"Our water source at Toothache Springs was a water buffalo that had so much sediment that the filter had a hard time cleaning it. Our chemical treatment worked better but the water didn't taste very good."

Maybe they didn't locate the intended water source and used the water buffalo instead?

[Tony Ronco]

Toothache Springs is a starting trail camp that is only used this year for Itinerary 7 .
(… and from what I understand, it's a trail camp for Ranger Training too).

So assuming the former, your crew is planning on doing Itinerary 7 and when there, can not draw water directly from the source … then your crew may experience the situation you describe . Since a typical 0.2 micron filter will quickly clog if "filtering" water with sediment in it, you basically have two pragmatic choices:
1.) Wait until the suspended sediment settles out. (A gallon zip lock can be used to isolate the water you want to use) … or …
2.) Prefilter the water with a coffee filter (or suitable substitute) to remove as much of the suspended sediment as possible. Coffee filters are much, much better than a more porous bandana.
3.) There is a third less pragmatic choice, and that is to use a MSR Sweetwater Siltstopper … it is less pragmatic in that it doesn't really do heavy sediment (so, you'll have to clean it often, but it's easy access to do so, and MSR sells replacement filters for it, as it will begin to permanently clog)

Again, check out the Water Status Board in Logistics for your Itinerary's approved water sources and their status (take a picture of it). Logistics will go over all of that with your crew leader and have him or her mark up their map with an appropriate level of notes.

[Shane Watts]

Thanks Tony!

[ed dzierzak]

So, are you doing a trek this year?

Comments on the water board are on target.

Tanks of the sort shown are not (to my knowledge) used. Even where such tanks were present, they were for overflow from this sort of tank:

Also, "water buffalo" usually has a different meaning – a water tank on wheels generally used by the military. Philmont version:
This photo was on Philsearch.org

The tank you pictured is also known as a "stock tank", there area number on the ranch.

Nevertheless, the Philmont Guide to Adventure says to treat water EVERYWHERE unless specifically told by staff that the water is potable.

[Shane Watts]

Thanks Ed! Yes, headed up in July (#24). Our crew does 110-150 miles of lightweight backpacking per summer, so I wasn't initially concerned about doing Philmont. But reading about stagnant, putrid water sources raised an eyebrow. Very glad to know that it won't be an issue.

[HkNewman]

Even when letting sediment settle out from southwest water …

This is a bucket my buddy set aside for settling water to filter with a hole cut in the top for easy filling. Apparently the rodent fell in and could not claw its way out of the slick plastic. CSI: Gila

[Jerry Adams]

I don't think putting dead things in your water will purify it

[ed dzierzak]

Shane –
If I assume correctly, you're doing trek 24?

If so, water sources should not be a major problem.

I've done similar treks in the past and have not lacked for water. Every staffed camp has potable water (except for one or two), always ask anyway.

You have one dry camp – Hawkeye. Still not a problem. Swap meals – have dinner at a site with water (lunch) and then have your lunch meal for dinner at the dry camp.

One other situation that merits caution – between Miners Park and Clarks Fork you have a program choice to make. This will be done when your crew leader goes through Logistics. The choice is between doing a side hike to the Tooth of Time OR having a Chuckwagon Dinner at Clarks Fork. It isn't possible to do both. Doing the Tooth side hike gets you into Clarks Fork too late for the dinner.

If you do the Tooth side hike consider that there is NO water once you pass North Fork Urraca Camp. Tooth Ridge is exposed, hot and sunny most days. It's about a long day with lots of elevation gain/loss. I've had kids take 4 liters of water just for the side hike and come up short before we returned to Shaefers Pass. By the way, if you do this side hike, do a pack line and bear bag your smellables at Shaefers Pass. Take day packs with food and water for the side hike. The folks in logistics will discuss all this with your crew leader before you leave base camp.

Have a great trek!

[M B]

In reference to the above, skip the chuckwagon dinner.

I would describe it as ……pretty bad.

Seriously.

They should be embarrassed.

[Shane Watts]

Ed,

Yes, trek #24. Really good info on the water, as I had assumed we'd be able to refill at Shaefers Pass Camp. Is that a dry camp then?

Our crew wants to hike the Tooth, and our current thinking is we get up very early that morning (pre-dawn) and try to reach Shaefers Peak or Tooth Ridge for sunrise. We had also thought that this might allow us to reach Clark's Fork in time for the dinner, but no big deal if we miss it.

We had planned to bear bag our smellables and more at Shaefers. We are not currently planning to take separate day packs, as they'd only be used for the Tooth and Badly hikes. Instead, we plan to use our packs with as little in them as possible. Several of the Crew's packs have detachable lid systems, so that may be an option for them.

I'll take any advice I can get, then pass it on to the Crew leader and let him and the Crew decide.

[Tony Ronco]

RE: Water at Shaefers Pass Camp.
The spring that was listed there has been dry a number of years now. Plan on it being a dry camp. The Water Board in Logistics will be provide status of the spring.

RE: Another Chuckwagon dinner data point
For our crews, we had the Chuckwagon dinner at Beubien – the boys loved, the adults didn't …. Since I'm sure Clark's Fork uses the same prepackaged packets of beef stew as Beubien, that's one more data point on the quality of that dinner. Truth be told, if you can tolerate Philmont trail food, you can tolerate the Chuckwagon dinner ;-)

EDIT: Ed is right, the Chuckwagon dinner is indeed a beef stew (rather mushy too) … Not a chilli as I originally stated. Just goes show how memorable that dinner was ( *smile* ). The cobbler dessert was acceptable.

[ed dzierzak]

+1 on the Shaefers' water. Only once in the treks I've done has there been anything more that a trickle. You'll have potable water at Miners Park and then the opportunity to top-off at North Fork Urraca Camp. The source at NFU is the stream, be sure to purify. It's a long way and a good bit of "up" to hump water, but you'll be glad you have it.

The water board will show Shaefers as dry or trickle. Treat is as dry, you won't go wrong. There is Bear Creek at Upper Clarks Fork, you'll pass the camp after Shaefers. However, in 2014 the water board listed it as a trickle. That's usually not worth the bother. Again, check the water board. With a digital camera (don't think anybody uses film anymore) pictures of the water board are helpful on the trail.

Going out of Miners you'll be going up until just passed the turn-off for the climbing area. Beyond this it's a longish (at least it seems so), switch-backed trail down to NFU. From NFU it's a forever climb to Shaefers Pass. Look at the trail profile in the Treks book. That little peak in between the two larger ones is the Tooth. The distance looks to be 10-12 miles.

The official line is no hiking in the dark. I had one crew, starting from Miners, wanting to be on the Tooth at sunrise. They tried, didn't make it. I seem to remember the sun coming up just passed Shaefers Pass.

Do take the Shaefers Peak side trail also. It's not that far.

In addition, most of the Tooth Ridge trail is very rocky, as in "This is the trail?" rocky. Legend has it that Waite Phillips "improved" the trail with a bit of dynamite…

Re: Chuckwagon dinner

Since you'll be doing the Tooth side hike you'll be doing your own dinner in the campsite. The chuckwagon dinner usually beef stew, biscuits, and cobbler. A nice change from trail food but nothing to write home about.

The reason there is the choice is that crews cannot make it to Clarks in time to send the cooks to help with dinner. Yes, you'd have to send two "volunteers" to help with the cooking and clean-up, usually about 3 PM. Your crew leader will record that choice when in Logistics before you leave base camp.

Sorry, I tend to be long-winded…

[Shane Watts]

Excellent info…thank you!

[Mark Rash]

My son arrived at Philmont today for his Rayado Trek. Report from Philmont is it is the wettest it's been since the floods in the 60s. Water is plentiful everywhere. Raining every day, and overnight temps at Crooked Creek (10,000 ft) is 40 degrees. Still snow on Phillips and Baldy.

The good news is there isn't a burn ban so hot showers are available (wood burning water heaters)

[Shane Watts]

Good info on the water, Mark. It will be high irony for our group, coming from the wet and mossy Cascades, to travel to the alpine desert and get rained on every day. Last year on a 50 miler, we got hit by a severe storm that washed a 20' section of the PCT down the side of the mountain, along with two of our Scouts who happened to be standing on it when it collapsed. No injuries, no fun, but a good story.

I'd like to change topic if I may: Can anybody tell me what happens if a youth member of a crew–mid trek–cannot continue? I assume an adult member of the crew must accompany them to the base? Must the adult stay with them, or can he/she return to the crew ASAP? Once they get to base camp, do they have the option to stay and wait for their crew to complete the trek, or must they leave and return home ASAP? If they can stay, does Philmont make any accommodations for them (tent, food, activities, museum tours, etc.)?

I've not been able to get much information from the Philmont literature about this, other than Scouts are responsible to make their own arrangements to return home. We have one member of our crew whose fitness has me concerned, and I want to know what our options are. Thanks!

[Bruce Kolkebeck]

I am no expert but this is what I have experienced. We had a Crew member develop a bad ankle and we had to bring him down from Baldy and carry him into Baldy Town. They took him to base and was back in two days. I had another scout who had a bad reaction to carpenter ant bites. Epi-pen, base camp and back in two days. We had a venture break her leg coming out of Greenwood Canyon before Philmont finished the trail to Copper Park. Her mom had to continue on with the crew as she was the only female leader. The girl got to flirt with young doctors in base for a week.

If you have two leaders and one comes off the trail you got a problem. Then you have to hire a staff member.

All these things happened on five treks. I'm gonna have to be quiet because nobody is going to want to go with me again.

Semper Gumby

BK

[Mark Rash]

It's my understanding, and I could be wrong, that an injured scout will be taken back to basecamp and allowed to stay there. No adults have to come off the trail with the scout. If the scout is able to continue, he/she will be brought to a camp to meet the crew on their itinerary.

If a scout/adult isn't medically cleared to begin the trek, then they are supposed to go home… not stay in tent city.

I could be wrong, but I've read two trip reports that support this.

[Bruce Kolkebeck]

I'm sorry. I didn't answer the question. Each time we had kids come off the trail the leaders stayed behind with the crew.

[Bruce Kolkebeck]

Just read this and felt it applied to your question.

http://www.philmontscoutranch.org/filestore/philmont/pdf/Philnews_2015/2015PhilNews_3.pdf

[Shane Watts]

Bruce, this article is great! Covers everything I had questions about. It's good to know what the options are, though I'll definitely not be sharing this information with any of the Scouts in my crew. Finish the trek or die is fine for now. Besides, having TV as an alternative option might prove too much for some of them when the going gets tough.

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