Is it even possible to stay dry in a rain forest? Should I just give up?

[Dihnekis]

Another week spent in the Great Smoky Mountain National Park. Rained for 3 days straight, with solid downpours often and a continuous drizzle when it wasn't downpouring. Solid fog the whole time, 100% humidity all day every day. Spent three nights in my duomid, polycro floor, no bug net or bivy. By the end of the third night my down quilt was solidly wet. My quilt is a 20 degree, and temps were in the 40s, so I was fine even with it half wet. It's just frustrating though, there just doesn't seem like any way to stay dry. The duomid did a good job keeping the rain out, the problem was condensation getting knocked loose by hard rainfall and falling on me. I felt a light spray all night. Everything inside the tarp was covered with moisture by the end of the night. I adjusted the tarp for better airflow, but then started getting splatter as the heavy drops landing next to the tarp sprayed the inside. Just no way to win. What do you PNW people do? Just stay wet?

[Ian]

PNWer here. I actually live in Eastern Washington which is desert but spend much of my time hiking in the Cascades where it can get pretty damp. Most of my trips are less than a week so you'll need to bear that in mind as I write the following.

"What do you PNW people do? Just stay wet?"

Yeah pretty much. I was late to the party but I am officially down with down. I've woken to indoor swimming pools in my shelter (due to huge user error) and have walked for days in swirling mist and rain. I've yet to have my sleeping bag fail me. The DWR coating helps but the humidity certainly challenging and nothing ever feels dry in those conditions, including me.

I think overshooting your warmth comfort zone like that in those conditions is a great strategy. If you think you might be cutting it too close, it may be worth taking on a weight penalty to have a synthetic insulating layer on standby to keep you out of type III fun territory.

[Owen McMurrey]

"The duomid did a good job keeping the rain out, the problem was condensation getting knocked loose by hard rainfall and falling on me. I felt a light spray all night."
I put my rain jacket and the light softshell I wear for hiking in cool to cold temps over my quilt when in this position for a couple of nights last fall. Would have been better if I didn't toss and turn so much, because they kept getting moved, and my stuff still got wet.
I would have loved to have had a bivy in that instance, or one of my 4oz frogg toggs emergency ponchos(which I just thought of, and seems like a pretty decent idea).

And yeah, this rain is sucking. I've been working an overtime shift on my "weekends" the last two weeks, because it's stormed all through my off days. I'd be hiking anyway if the OT wasn't available, but when not taking it equates to paying >$250/wk to hike in the rain for a couple of days, screw that…

[Andy F]

Here are my thoughts from my experiences in our "Eastern US rainforests":

Improve or renew your quilt's DWR. Only wash it with special products designed to not affect DWR. Sometimes just washing it and putting it in the dryer on the highest heat safe for the materials will renew the DWR. My Montbell down bag has near bivy-quality DWR.

Consider using a double wall tent or inner tent for your Duomid with a solid top on the inner tent. This having a bathtub floor would be great too.

If you camp on anything but absorbent forest duff, your polycro floor will at times experience flooding from water running over it.

[David Chenault]

A synthetic quilt/bag makes a big difference when there's just no break in the rain to do any drying. A bigger shelter would help mitigate the condensation issue, as would a double wall tent (at a big weight penalty).

[Dale Wambaugh]

Not really, but you have to try. Hypothermia is mean.

Get synthetc everything. And a hammock with an integrated bug screen. A Hennesy or Warbonnet with tarp is a well ventilated double wall shelter.

Its the same in the PNW, days of cool drizzle, high humidity and no sun to dry your gear. Yothermiu can get away with a lot for an overnighter, but multi-day trips are living in a cloud. I want to be dipped like a Gouda cheese and just peel when I get back to the car :)

[Ryan Smith]

As you can tell by previous posts, managing the moisture is the proper technique in areas with high humidity and precipitation. Double wall tents or tarp with inner is a huge help. An inner would increase your comfort level 100%.

I'm going to be in the Smokies in a few days. If you need something let me know.

Ryan

[Dihnekis]

I'm just curious how would an inner help? Would the bug netting keep the moisture out somehow? Could I just get the Sea to Summit bug pyramid?

Also, thanks for all the comments. I'm using an old Revelation X EE quilt, which I don't think has any DWR of any kind.

[Dihnekis]

A solid top on the inner net, I've never even heard of such a thing. So basically setup a smaller tarp inside my tarp? I'm assuming that would work to keep the raindrops from knocking loose the condensation. Also, my polycro hasn't had any flooding, decent site selection and the ground pretty much soaks everything up in the smokies.

[John Vance]

When I lived in the Seattle area I spent a lot of time on the peninsula. A double walled tent was the only way I could deal with it but I had no problems with a down bag once I got used to the damp feeling of everything. I bumped up the temp rating of the bag I used to compensate but it wasn't a big deal. I wore fleece during the day and only swapped out to down in camp and kept it covered and dry.

Most of my trips were in the spring and fall – my favorite times to be out. Other than trips on the coast, it wasn't hard to adjust and I wasn't as wet as I thought or felt. On the coast it was very wet and I typically took a big bulky synthetic bag. Most of those trips were car camping with day hikes so it wasn't a problem.

Bottom line – shelter with an inner and enjoy!

[James holden]

a tip is to put yr synthetic or fleece jacket over the top of yr bag …

and yr rain jacket over the top of the footbox

a hawt nalgene also pushes out the moisture

as to dry? …. hahahahaha … anyone whos spent time where the sun dun shine for days an its constantly drizzling knows theres no such thing as dry

;)

[Andy F]

An inner tent with at least a solid top would stop the moisture from dripping directly onto you. It's also likely to have some solid sides. You would probably have to get one custom-made, but maybe someone else knows of something which will work.

Tarptent has mid-like double wall tents available with solid inners, such as: Notch, Moment, and Stratospire. You could try one of them, or maybe buy one of their solid inners and see if you can adapt it to use in the Duomid? I think their Rainbow model has a solid liner which clips to the top to deflect drips.

Edit: mesh rather than solid fabric would only help slightly. The larger drips would still get through.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

If you wear the right combination of synthetic and wool clothes you can at least feel drier.

1.> It's a subjective, very personal thing but you have to know if garments of Coolmax feel drier than Merino Smartwool or not. It's feel more than anything that will dictate your choice. Also gaiters help when wearing regular or rain pants. Wear the pants cuffs over the gaiters, of course. This keeps shoes a lot drier as well as warmer even if they are wet.

2.> Treat shell material with a good DWR like Revivex or Granger's so they absorb less moisture and breathe better. Some pants like REI's Sahara line are pre-treated with Teflon and shed water well through several washings. You can both wash pants with a DWR and spray them after they are dry with another DWR. (belt & suspenders). Same with WPB laminates.

3.> Generally laminate WPB shell material like Gore-Tex Pro Shell and eVent breathe very well IF they have a good DWR treatment. Restore shell DWR frequently, especially in friction areas as wear is what destroys DWR effectiveness.

4.> Having a small tarp or very adequate tent vestibule can be a place to remove wet clothes to keep water out of the tent and cook during a downpour or even a persistent drizzle.
*(IF YOU TARP) For me only a tarp of 10' X 10' or 10' X 12' is adequate for rainy weather solo or 2 person camping. And that tarp should have 8 to 10 tie-out points all over it. I'm a tenter and eschew tarps except as dining flys but from my early tarping days in wet NW Pennsylvania the tarp info comes from sad experience and later happy tarping.

4.> Decide what works best for you in pack waterproofing:
-contractor trash bag pack liner
-roll-top waterproof stuff sacks
-waterproof pack cover
-all of the above (for belt & suspenders types) Personally I use the last two for backpacking or all of them if canoeing.

5.> As I'm sure you know, it helps if your sleeping bag has either synthetic fill or a down DWR treatment like Dri Down. And the bag shell should be treated with a good spray-on DWR treatment. Air it out when possible to get rid of accumulated body moisture.

6.> Finally (if you have a double wall tent) it is very important that the inner tent can be left attached to the fly or at least attached and detached AFTER the fly has been erected if you are separating them for division of weight among tent mates. Most newer DW tents are like this and most older DW tents are not.
** Spraying the ripstop inner tent (unless it's all netting) with a good DWR like Revivex keeps it from absorbing the condensation dropping off the fly – and it will drop from the fly.

* BTW, a synthetic camp towel is handy to wipe down tents and other gear. Well worth its weight.

[Katherine .]

"a tip is to put yr synthetic or fleece jacket over the top of yr bag …"

thank you eric chan. I've been thinking some fleece topper over the quilt would be good. But I couldn't figure out a weight-thrifty way of doing that. Duh, use the fleece I already have with me!

[Anonymous]

I'll break recommendations into two categories. Smokies vs Hardcore rainforest

Smokies-

Depends on your body mass, trip duration, tolerance. In warmer months I'm a fan of skipping rain gear for myself and just getting wet. If you hike hard, and wear tight base layers than don't sponge up water, you can probably stay warm in the smokies. Maybe bring an extra small towell to help dry off before sleeping bag. But if I'm taking anyone with a low BMI, i force them to take rain gear and layers. Hypothermia can set in at 54 degrees, particularly when wet. Iritability and whinny trip partners can set in much easier.

Hardcore rainforest

Some trip reports from Amazon rain forest goers suggested they relied on setting high tarps that they could build a small fire under to warm up. Hammocks may also be handy for extra airflow to dry out.

If you're doing the AT. Depending on your mileage, stopping at a shelter at mid day to get out of the rain and dry off can be great for mind and body. Take your shoes and socks off, Take your shoe inserts out. Shake/ring them out as much as you can. Even if they're still wet when you put them back on in an 30-60 minutes, that time barefoot is great for letting your feet dry out and unprune a bit. If you have extra socks, change them out forest gump style.

That time drying out your feet can really save your blisters, and help you recover your good hiking posture which degrades when your all soggy.

[Franco Darioli]

"the problem was condensation getting knocked loose by hard rainfall and falling on me. I felt a light spray all night. Everything inside the tarp was covered with moisture by the end of the night. I adjusted the tarp for better airflow, but then started getting splatter as the heavy drops landing next to the tarp sprayed the inside.

Take a look at the Tarptent StratoSpire 1 or 2.
(the one is a large solo…)
The solid inner is made with breathable but water resistant fabric.
These shelters will not stop condensation however you can have good air-flow without getting rain on the floor.
Note that the drip line is outside the floor area, of course you can half close that door or simply pitch the shelter higher (or both…)

http://www.tarptent.com/stratospire1.html
franco@tarptent

[Will Elliott]

Everything gets wet, given enough time, but everything dries out, too. It's ridiculously wet here in the rainforest. It rained for like 2 months this spring. But with synthetic everything, large shelters, and body heat, you stay warm and dry-ish. Getting wet isn't a big deal, just like being high off the ground for climbers. You just get used to it and then it's fine. Or buy an axe and make lots of fires.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Dihn

You are half way there. A few more steps are needed.

What is the problem?
Condensation falling on your gear, wetting everything.

Why is there condensation?
Because you and your gear are giving off water vapour inside your shelter, which is condensing on the colder inside of the roof.

Can you stop the water vapour from being given off?
Probably not.

Can you prevent the condensation from forming?
Only with an insulated roof, which is not going to happen today.

So you are going to get condensation, and it is going to fall down.

Can you block the falling condensation from reaching and wetting your gear?
This is the crucial question, and the answer is yes. How?
Use a double wall shelter with the following features:
1: The roof should be adequately high up.
2: The inner shell should breathe, to let the water vapour through to hit the outer shell, where it will condense and eventually fall off.
3: The inner shell MUST have a good DWR so the falling condensation does not wet it, but rather rolls off and stays outside.
4: The inner shell must stay warm enough that condensation does not form on the inside surface. This usually means it needs to be a 'closed' inner – doors etc, to keep warm air inside.

There are some corollaries:
An inner shell which uses netting is not going to work. That rules out most American psuedo-double-skin tents.
A tarp design where the air flows right through is not going to work.
Having two people inside the shelter rather than just one will work better as there is more heat being generated.
Some success has ben had by burning a 24 hr candle inside the inner tent all night, to keep the inside of the tent even warmer.
The inner tent needs to include the groundsheet, which needs a bucket design with side walls.
You are not going to get all this with a little SUL tarp designed for the dry parts of the Sierras.

Cheers

[John G]

In my area, we typically have 90-100% humidity all the time in the spring and fall. Dew points are in the 55 degree region, and we have little wind – so great big condensation droplets form on the underside of even unoccupied tarps each night. Also, dry clothes exposed to the air for 15 minutes start to feel damp even if you aren't wearing them. As you can imagine, nothing every fully drys. It also rains every day for several hours. Damp is the best you can hope for…

I've found that lightweight synthetic base layers, fleece mid layers, a rain shell with lots of mechanical venting (pit zips, etc) are the way to go for clothing. Down sleeping bags and jackets work OK but you need to subtract 20 degrees from their rating to account for dampness. Also realize that 650 down holds its loft a lot better when damp than 850 down. Synthetic is easier to deal with since down will absorb lots of moisture from the air unless you are wearing it (and your body heat is drying the moisture as its absorbed). Ie: you can't let down bags/quilts loft up in camp under a tarp, you need to keep them tightly stuffed to prevent air from getting into the insulation.

Regarding condensation droplets falling from a tarp : I've noticed that a good DWR will prevent the water from being absorbed into the sleeping bag. But it's something you have to renew a lot, and it doesn't prevent moisture from being absorbed out of the air at all…

Also, I've noticed that the "no see um" mesh inner on my Sierra designs tents completely stop large condensation droplets from falling onto my sleeping bag, and also block 85% of rain splatter from the ground, and maybe 1/3 of windblown rain. Unfortunately, it also stops 85% of the breezes – which is a big problem in the hot part of the summer.

I've never had a problem setting up my net inner 1st and then covering it with the waterproof fly. I just wipe down the inside floor with a pack towel. The floor is damp, but my sleeping pad keeps my bag dry. I just arrange a few pieces of gear to keep my feet on top of the pad at night. Typically, I put my boots / shoes on 1 side, and my clothes bag on the other side.

Good luck.

[Mark Parry]

Is the rain blowing hard sideways through your shelter or just coming straight down? If falling downward, I would try to pitch the tarp sides up higher for airflow and hang the sleeping bag on a tarp ridgeline cord during the day to dry–is this being put in a sack immediately ultra hiker style or are you camping?

I am very new to lightweight tarp shelters but grew up either car camping (later desert festival camping with larger heavy wind loaded tarp structures), or traditional backpacking. While I am not completely green, I am not an experienced rain forest camper OR an experienced UL backpacker yet! I'm aspiring to be some day and have done a little bit of research. I welcome feedback from all about the strategies I am adopting for this purpose. I live on Oahu and am making plans to walk Kalalau trail on island of Kauai and other camping in the Hawaiian islands, I'm not in a huge rainforest, but I might try to stay a few places that are pretty wet on short 1-5 day excursions.

– Synthetic quilt–I have ordered a 40F quilt with Climashield APEX insulation. Helium Hiking Carbon 40 for $120, I spoke to the maker on the phone yesterday and his rush order lead time was around 10 days at the time. This is also an "easy" MYOG project which should be around $50-100 depending on materials–you don't have to do any quilting or baffles which makes it approachable for those with very limited sewing experience. I might make my daughter a MYOG quilt since I have only ordered "carbon 40 quilts" for my wife and I at this point.

– Highly enclosed tarp pitches which can also allow airflow around the edges. I am trying a cat cut tarp for A frame pitches, and will add a beak to one end to try and help close the shelter off to the elements more when it is raining. I'm hoping that this allows me to keep the shelter sides raised slightly for airflow before needing to seal it down since less rain can come in the front door. If you're pitching a flat tarp, maybe a pyramid pitch with slightly raised edges?

– Oversized tarp-I'm trying a two person tarp because I plan to be out in the rain. Got lucky and found a custom extra long one for extra rain spray overhang.

– I also assume that rain forests have bugs, so I have an inner net tent for my tarp. It has a little bit of a silnylon "bath tub floor" to stop a little rain splash a few inches above the ground. I'm not sure why these are supposed to help with condensation though???

– Some people would also add an anti-splash bivy but I don't think I need it for my purposes. I feel a little better that I won't be potentially damaging a down bag if it's wet for 5 days, and people usually don't die of exposure and hypothermia in Hawaii. I will be adding synthetic layers and rain jackets on top of my quilt if I think it is going to get splashed, after reading this thread!!!

– Lightweight ground sheet and an air mattress may get you up out of the mud a little better than some setups. Exped hyperlight or neoair xlite would be taller/better than the z-lite or prolite I might buy but I don't feel like spending the money on the exped. Yes I know it's crazy to buy an expensive light tarp but a heavy/bulky cheap sleeping pad, so I do need something lighter than current 23oz exped airmat lite 5 (will keep for car camping/tougher day pack water rafts). Hate how bulky the z-lite is, but it's lighter than the 16oz prolite I used to own which was packable!!!

– I do not know anything about hammocks. May be learning more soon. I read that they do make sense sometimes, especially if it doesn't get too cold.

[Mike Bozman]

In the PSW of Canada this is what I have found to work the best for places the Juan de Fuca Trail in winter which includes overnight lows near freezing, single digit highs, lots of mud and near constant rain while hiking beside the ocean. You don`t stay dry while moving…

Gear while hiking:
Waterproof footwear. Screw breathability. The waterproof membrane slows down the transfer of the warm water inside your footwear to the outside. Much like a wetsuit is wet but warm.
WPB pants. Whatever will keep the mud, rain and wet bushes off your lower half. Wear a pair of light synthetic pants underneath.
Light long sleeve shirt. Synthetic does dry faster than wool it seems.
Windshirt.
Umbrella in one hand and hiking pole in the other.
WPB jackets are pretty much useless while hiking.

Gear for camp:
Change of footwear.
Synthetic layers. Fleece is your friend.
WPB layers are great for camp.
Double wall shelters are good but you still get condensation inside them.
A small tarp is essential. Hang out under it. Have it cover your tent door. Maybe even put your tent under it.
Synthetic sleeping bag or quilt.
Thick mattress (Neo-air or similar). This provides you with enough height to not absorb any condensation that forms on the floor of your shelter.

Packing gear:
Everything in garbage bags. With a couple of extras. Store wet backpack out of tent in a garbage bag.
A pack cover helps keep everything cleaner and drier.
Hang wet gear under tarp overnight. It won`t dry out but any excess liquid will at least drip off.

The best part of all in putting the soaking wet stuff back on the next morning and packing the dry stuff up so that it will stay dry. Wet footwear and near freezing temps suck. I have heated up water and poured it in my shoes just to warm them up before my feet go into them. Once you are moving they are not cold.

Here is a regular Feb weekend on the JdF. Even though it was blowing 90kph, raining steady and only 3 degrees (there was snow on the side of the highway on the drive out) we all stayed warm and dry enough on our three day hike of the JdF. Pack weights were about 23 pounds.

[Matt Dirksen]

If you are not into replacing any of your gear (but committed to "adding" something to your kit…

Perhaps consider a thin, fleece-like blanket which can cover both you and your gear while you are in your shelter.

Let that piece of gear take the direct hit of the condensation, which will be much easier to dry off than the rest of your stuff.

While throwing all our outerwear overtop is good practice, I've found this extra blanket thing has worked helped in the past.

… Until you end up with an authentic double walled tent as Roger & others have mentioned.

Good luck.

[Inaki Diaz de Etura]

Another thing you could do is use a bivy with a vertical support as well as staked down to the ground so the bivy top is not in contact with your sleeping bag and works as a mini-inner tent. Preferably a non-waterproof topped bivy.

This would be a lighter solution than a full, solid-inner tent, though not as comfortable.

[Dihnekis]

"Another thing you could do is use a bivy with a vertical support as well as staked down to the ground so the bivy top is not in contact with your sleeping bag and works as a mini-inner tent. Preferably a non-waterproof topped bivy.

This would be a lighter solution than a full, solid-inner tent, though not as comfortable."

I actually really like that idea. I've got the borah gear bivy, I wonder how easy it would be to modify it to allow for that? As it is, I can lift just the head net up but it would be great to be able to lift the whole thing.

[Ben C]

I think your problem is a little location-specific. What works for people in the west or elsewhere is not the same as what will work in the Smokies.

My experience has been that a double wall does help some. But they tend to stay wet when you pack up and are heavy.

I have also found that having a larger, more open, tarp helps in the Smokies. Air flow helps with condensation. The size helps with splatter. I haven't used a mid in the Smokies, but it seems like a bit of a condensation trap for this area. I do use a cuben trailstar and haven't had a real problem with condensation since switching to it. I set it up so it vents well on all sides. My previous shelter, a shaped rectangular tarp set up as a A-frame, had few condensation problems in the Smokies either; again, I think the ventilation was key.

I have found that a bivy tends to condense in the East also.

You could pick up a cheap flat tarp and groundsheet and see if that works for you.

[Author]

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