Fires and stoves in snow shelters

[Edward Barton]

For those with experience with snow trenches, caves, and the like:

How feasible is having a fire or using a stove in a snow trench or other shelter? How about a hot tent type stove? At what temps/conditions, and for how long? I recently got a wifi stove from tigoat, and I'd like to try using it in a snow trench with a tarp/stove jack over top. I imagine melt might be an issue though.

Anyone have experience with this? Perhaps lining the trench with groundcloth material would help?

[Roger Caffin]

Fire IN a snow shelter? Nope. Too much hot air and radiation.
Stove in any sort of (snow) shelter? For sure, all the time. We all do that.

Cheers

[Edward Barton]

Thanks Roger,
I guess I'm not talking about a full fledged fire per say, or a fully enclosed snow shelter, but more of a backpackable wood stove in a snow trench with a tarp roof, perhaps in tandem with a dead wood frame, with a stove jack in the tarp.

It would be warmer at night than an exposed shelter, and lighter. I imagine the trench would heat up well, even with a small stove, but yes perhaps too well. Though I wonder if you could control for the melt by mounting the stove on logs, and lining the trench well with polycryo or evergreen limbs, or digging out a wide enough space so your bag didn't touch the sides. Am I in total dreamland here?

[Bob Gross]

Many years ago I used to lead beginner snowcamping trips.

One of the standard things to do was to build a fire. We knew that it would be unlikely that we could find any burnable wood under eight feet of snow, so I always carried in one Pine Mountain Fire Log. We would build an altar out of snow, put some green branches on it, and then the Fire Log on top. It was always good to see six or eight faces with the fire reflections. However, the fire log would burn down… down… down. After a while, the fire log was still burning, but it had melted its way down through the snow to ground level. We could see some light shooting up out of the hole, but to actually see the fire, we would have to step close to the hole and peer down. Eventually we figured out that this was not a very environmentally sound practice, so the whole thing ended.

–B.G.–

[David Thomas]

Multiple people heat up a snow cave pretty well. And with people, you only have to worry about CO2 which you get some warning of (stronger and stronger urge to breath). Stoves and fires also make CO which is dangerous at far lower levels and gives no warning, so you need more ventilation, kind of defeating the purpose.

Long before a schelping a stove and wood for use in a snow cave, I'd try a large candle. Light, cheer, and some warmth without nearly so much O2 consumption nor having to feed it every 40 minutes.

The Inupiat used seal-oil lamps in igloos and dug-into-the-earth sod dwellings in a similar way for similar reasons.

[Bob Gross]

"The Inupiat used seal-oil lamps in igloos and dug-into-the-earth sod dwellings in a similar way for similar reasons."

David, I think you refer to a barabara. I've been in some on the Alaskan Peninsula. They must have used driftwood in order to build a roof over the dug portion.

With all of that seal-oil burning, there must have been a distinct odor.

–B.G.–

[Paul Magnanti]

You do not want a snow shelter to heat too much.

Hovering around 30F is perfect.

Warm enough to keep the cold at bay; not so much you are dripping snow into the shelter.

A backpacking stove can be used to heat up water and food. Just make sure there is proper ventilation.

My last snow cave had low teens outside. I was very warm in just a 20F bag in the cave itself.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Edward

OK, understood. However, we need to look at a few constraints.

First off, if you make the inside of any snow shelter warmer than 0 C, the shelter is going to melt. Water, icy cold water, everywhere. So you need to limit your aims.

Second, any 'fire' is going to radiate so much heat and give off so much hot air that it will make things too hot. Doesn't matter whether it is an open fire or a small Ti wood stove.

Could you line a trench to protect the walls? Well, yes, but you might end up carrying so much polycro and other stuff (WEIGHT!) that you would be better off just trying something else – like a full-blown geodesic dome.

What you can do fairly safely with trenches and igloos etc is to bring the interior up to about 0 C, but no warmer. A carefully designed igloo with one candle and two people inside it can be a whole lot more comfy than -15 C with a 30 km/hr wind outside. And that is how people do it.

Cheers

[Edward Barton]

Cheers, guys. Thanks, that was super helpful. A candle sounds great for this purpose. I will hold onto my pyramid tarp for the ti stove use.

[Bob Gross]

If you have a complete snow shelter like an igloo, it is pretty well insulated. Each live human body puts out heat similar to a 75 watt incandescent light bulb. That is not a great deal of heat, but if you manage it, it can be useful. A small heat like a candle can be helpful as well, because it will cause convection air currents within the igloo. The heat will be carried upward to the snow ceiling. There, it melts just the surface of snow. If you were stupid and left sharp snow projections on the ceiling, then those will melt and water will drip off onto you and your sleeping bag. However, the few water drops that melt on a smooth ceiling will migrate over to the igloo walls and start to slide down. Somewhere along the wall, the water drops will re-freeze. That is the perfect temperature to maintain your igloo, right around freezing point. Note that it does not require a super sleeping bag to keep you warm (assuming that there is no wind). All you might need is a simple piece of plastic or a space blanket to keep any dampness from the wall off your sleeping bag.

–B.G.–

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