Waterproof Bivy or Tarp + lightweight Bivy?

[Link .]

Yes, Alpinlite is now called Yama Mountain Gear.

[Christoph Blank]

Although I understand that there is no point for a bivy with a good tarp (that I have anyway) I think I might get a MLD Superlight anyway.

After some thinking the reasons are mainly "cowboy camping" as called previously:

– fast set up
– not easily visible
– wind protection in good weather, provides more warmth than sleeping bag alone
– visibility (sky, 360 degrees)
– protection for the bag
– bug protection

For me this makes sense, if I know that the weather is good and if it's not for longer.
I have to take a tarp in any way to protect my photo gear if the weather should change, but I do not expect to use it.

If I know that the weather might be bad, I leave the bivy at home as I know I will sleep under the tarp.

Is my point understandable? :)

The only question left is: How breathable is the MLD superlight? Is there a big differece to an eVent one? Otherwise I might just get a waterproof one

Alternatives:
1. Use the tarp like a bivy, wrapping around, sticking my head out
2. Use a waterproof bivy and only a small (poncho) tarp for the head part

[Matt Dirksen]

Given that the Superlight bivy is made from the same material as their sleeping bags, I suspect it's likely to be quite breathable.

While Event is quite "vapor permeable" compared to other wpb's on the market, I seriously doubt it has the same cfm rating as MLD's "2015 MLD Mountain 10d X 10d 3xDWR Ripstop" material.

In my opinion, they are two totally different materials which serve entirely different purposes.

But I'm sure there are others on the list who actually have real data on this stuff, and not just a "wag" such as mine.

[Chris Jones]

Hi Christoph,

Just curious, what kind of sleeping bag (temperature rating) would you be taking on these trips?

How high up will you be bivvying?

[Billy Ray]

"After some thinking the reasons are mainly "cowboy camping" as called previously:…"

Another reason: bivy is a good safety margin in case your tarp blows down (wpb bivy that can stay dry inside through the whole night in a storm). I take both if there is any question about the weather… and there almost always is in the mountains.

As for deciding what to take based on the weather forecast: lol !
I've seen forecasts say sunny, not a cloud in the sky and then rain for a week.
And I've seen forecasts for week of rain where it was actually sunny for a week.

billy

[Christoph Blank]

Hi, thanks for the replies

@Chris, I have a couple of sleeping bags, and it heavily depends on the current weather conditions here. The sleeping bags are Western Mountaineering, Summerlite, Ultralite and a Winter bag which I don't know the name of. If it's colder I also combine the Summer- and Ultralite. Height varies but generally is sub 3000m, so the above mentioned combinations and bivies should be alright.

@Billy, with forecasts I'm only referring to forecasts for the next day or 48 hours. They are accurate to 80% or more, I never had a problem here and as I've said I take the tarp with me in these cases anyway.

[Chris Jones]

Hi Christoph,

Which WM bag do you find more fit for purpose, given the area you bivvying in?

The reason I ask is that I am planning a trek through the Austrian Alps. I will be stealth bivvying along the way, but dining at the huts, as the food is too irresistible not to. So I am looking at sleeping bag/bivvy/maybe tarp combos that I could use throughout the summer and shoulder seasons. I know the area around Innsbruck can be rainy/windy at times, even in summer, so I have to take that into consideration. And then there's the ticks.

[Christoph Blank]

That's a bit difficult to say because it depends on a lot of factors.
I'm a cold sleeper, so I usually take more.

I think during summer the Ultralite would be okay with a good mat.
The variables are of course:

– altitude
– weather (it can happen that temperatures go quickly down to sub-zero and it starts to snow
– yourself (warm/cold sleeper)

I think the Ultralite would be sufficient for most of the conditions if you have a good bivy and mat. But it really depends on the weather and how good you can plan in advance.

You could ask at the outdoorseiten.net forum, to get more opinions as there are a lot more local users than here.

[Chris Jones]

I should have mentioned that I am a cold sleeper.

Don't know if you've seen this. A video of the MLD SoloMid in high wind in the Austrian mountains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afh5m8BNvns

Probably not the best place to pitch, but I think he was trying to demonstrate how well it stands up to the wind.

[Christoph Blank]

Man, now this is funny.

I was just looking for Golite Poncho Tarp pictures and came across some on flickr. They were from a guy doing a lot of hiking, ski touring, trail running etc in Austria/South Tyrol and has really awesome photos on twitter. At the moment I'm browsing through them.

Now I saw your reply and watched the video – and the funny part is, it's exactly that guy! Hahaha, what a coincidence.

Photos are here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tyrolmountains

And yeah, probably not the best place to pitch :) But an awesome tent.
Regarding the sleeping bags: This season is my first in the Alps with the two WM bags, so I will be experimenting as well (also with shelters and bivy).

[Chris Jones]

More Tirol P0rn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU8ao_V-tqk

Sorry to derail your thread ;)

Anyway, I would be curious to know how you get on with your WM bags, so if you wouldn't mind coming back to this thread later with an update, that would be great.

[Christoph Blank]

Awesome videos and photos yeah.. quite motivating :)
Pack/Gearlists would be interesting, but I couldn't find anything..

Sure, I'll post my findings.. currently there is still quite a lot of snow around :)

[Chris Jones]

Here is a video where he details the contents of his backpack on a spring hike near Grossglockner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEFhy6uGfn8

The MLD SoloMid makes an appearance as well as a WM Apache.

[Christoph Blank]

Thanks for the hint! Interesting

I'd like to have the Apache as well :)

[Chris Jones]

Hi Christoph,

Have you had a chance to do some overnights in the mountains yet?

Any reflections on your sleep system?

[Max Dilthey]

I was attracted to Bivy Only for a lot of reasons… simplicity, speed, packability, etc.

I tried a few custom UL e-Vent bivy bags and found some details to be lacking, like bug protection, rain protection (can't have it open for ventilation when it's raining) and just plain-old size. In the end, an Outdoor Research Alpine Bivy was the right choice.

I threw the pole away and I just tie it up to keep it off my face, and keep ventilation high:

Here's my tie-up. Note the little plastic hook for grabbing the rain cover and keeping it out of the way in good weather:

My favorite standalone shelter. If I was going to do tarp and bivy, I would sooner just use a hammock. Setup is the same amount of time and comfort goes way up.

[Franco Darioli]

"If I was going to do tarp and bivy, I would sooner just use a hammock. Setup is the same amount of time and comfort goes way up"

For some reason hammocks are not all that popular in the European Alps.
If I were in the OP's shoes rather than pondering about w/p bivy , bivy plus tarp, larger tarp… I would just get one of these, Tarptent Pro Trail :

and for 700g have a bug free shelter that sets up in less than two minutes and packs down to the size of a bivy/tarp combo.
(I slept cowboy style on the Italian Alps , bugs were a bit of a pain .We used small grass fires (above tree level) to give us some respite from them).

But of course I am with Tarptent .

[Mike M]

for simplicity sake, nothing is easier/faster than a bivy only shelter- when I'm in the mood for covering a lot of country and the days are going to be long, I grab my eVENT bivy

it's also the best choice when using snow trenches or caves imo

[Mark]

Mike, what sleeping mat are you using please?

Will a Exped synmat UL7 fit inside the eVent bivvy or will it need a tapered mat?

[Christoph Blank]

@Chris Jones, sorry for the late reply, somehow I didn't get any updates in this thread.

Unfortunately I am still waiting for my MLD Superlight Bivy – more than 12 weeks now (it stated 6-8), which is a bit of a let down. Therefore I could not test it yet, however, it has been shipped last week and I hope to receive it soon.

Regarding the above posts: The reason I cannot use a waterproof bivy only, is my photo gear that I usually carry in my backpack, I could use a pack cover but it would get more difficult than just taking a lightweight tarp in case it rains.

The plan is to use the MLD Superlight Bivy in addition with a Golite Poncho tarp on some 1-2 day mountainbike trips in the next weeks to do some astrophotography.

It still feels like a bit of an overhead, but the additional Bivy allows for stealth/fast/uncomplicated camping and if necessary adds some warmth.

[Mike M]

Mark- I upsized by MLD bivy to large- I use a regular neoair in the summer and a regular xtherm in shoulder season/winter, plenty of room for the pad w/o reducing loft of my quilt

^ if you are using a poncho tarp (~ 5×8) then a bivy isn't optional imo, it's necessary- you would need to get into a larger tarp before safely leaving the bivy behind

I've used that identical setup in the past, it worked pretty well and helped me reduce pack weight significantly- practice w/ your poncho so you can rig it up quickly and efficiently- there is a good thread floating around showing the numerous pitches possible

a couple of years ago in the Crazies, 1/2 pyramid

[Brian Lewis]

Christopher beat me to it:
"Furthermore tarp + poncho combinations that are lighter than a poncho tarp would be interesting"

I think a pretty waterproof bivy plus poncho is a possibility — i.e., a tarp that IMO is on the skimpy-to-inadequate side, but doubles as rain gear.

BUT: having done both, I'm in the camp that says that bivy sacks are best left to specific applications (mountain climbing, for example). If I lived in a place where bugs were rare, I'd be a solid tarp guy. As it is, I use a tarp in shoulder season or some winter hiking trips, but otherwise I think that a lightweight tent is much better, offering a decent bug-free zone. I've been in situations with a bivy where the bugs are fierce but it's too warm to be in the bivy even when not in the sleeping bag; my tent allows me to roll up the fly and use it as a bug-only tent. I also find that I like a tent over a tarp for "stuff management": little things that I set down in the tent are still in the tent in the morning. Little things set down beside a tarp can roll away or blow away, or get dirty/sandy/etc.

I realize that you did NOT ask for a list of reasons why tarps are 'bad' — :-) But I think it's worth thinking through the tradeoffs when tarptents provide a more comfortable environment and can be quite lightweight.

Put another way, if I owned only one shelter it would be a lightweight tent. I do like having a tarp option for certain conditions, but I find that in practice I rarely use it. In addition to a very light (not waterproof) bivy, I also have a net tent that I can pair with my Gatewood Cape. I just find that I rarely use the GC alone as a shelter (bug concerns) and adding the net tent means that I save no weight over a better, roomier tent (the net tent is very tight inside). The lightweight bivy has been useful for some applications; one a long distance trip the ability to split the bivy and tarp functions meant that I could mail one piece home when I wasn't needing it any longer. The lightweight bivy was nice in snow on the Appalachian Trail when occasionally light snow would waft into the shelters. But the truth is that it mostly sits on a shelf at home.

[Mark]

Thanks Mike.

[Richard May]

"Furthermore tarp + poncho combinations that are lighter than a poncho tarp would be interesting"

Yep, been thinking of that too. In the summer my bivy gives me bug protection. By my numbers it's possible to lose a couple of ounces and a few hundred dollars. In my case I'd lose more ounces and fewer dollars by getting a backpack that fits properly. So it's not very high on my priorities list.

Zpacks 8.5×10 Cuben Flat Tarp= 6.7oz ($255)
Frogg Toggs poncho= 2.8oz ($5.99)
Polycryo groundsheet= 1.6oz ($9.95)

TOTAL: 11.1oz/$270.94

w/Zpacks Groundsheet Poncho (5.1oz/$155)= 11.8oz/$410
w/MLD Cuben Floor Bug Bivy (5oz/$175)=14.5/$435.99
w/full length CCF sleep mat and no groundcloth= 9.5oz/$260.99 (fall-early spring)

Current Setup:

GoLite Poncho Tarp: 7.3oz/$90
MYOG Bivy: 6.60z/$50

TOTAL: 13.9oz/$140

Edited to fix math.

[Christoph Blank]

I have to admit I'm a little bit upset, ordered the MLD Bivy in April, still nothing

[Author]

Posts