Can I get away without a mid layer for the CT?

[Alex Herron]

Doing the CT in early august. Hope to get it done in 16-17 days before work comes back into my life… Last year got interrupted by home getting flooded.

SO that means almost always hiking to get to that magical 30mpd mark.

Do I need a fleece mid layer? Not a fan of puffies and I just got a tachyon wind jacket hear on gear swap. This will go under a zpacks poncho and I am planning on not using trekking poles, that may change, so I can always keep my arms in the poncho.

For my legs I was toying with just silnylon chaps (remember the poncho) to go with my running shorts and thats it. Will I miss a pair of long johns?

Some defense for this:
The poncho will NOT wet through.
Expected temps shouldn't be to much below 30 degrees during the day, Right? SO base layer wind jacket is probably okay…
Honestly I have no idea about the chaps and shorts combo though… Never used chaps before. Very tempting to bring my dynamo wind pants.

I would get a fleece vest/ bring my zee line long johns if this isn't a good idea. —8oz and some bulk to make my life potentially not miserable.
SO I would only do this if it would be 95% probably okay

[Dale Wambaugh]

I would carry a puffy vest at minimum. My Patagonia Micro Puff vest is 7.2oz. Fleece-wise a military R1 style top is 10.4oz. I'm sure you can find a down vest that is lighter.

Spare insulation is part of the classic essentials for good reason— take *something*. I think it is crossing the line from UL to foolhardy to go without. Glad you kept rain gear on the list.

[Alex Herron]

Let us not forget that if it is truly cold and I am careful I could perhaps insert the quilt into my wind jacket just in the torso area, as well as the crotch area to keep myself warm without it getting wet during a rain storm under the cuben poncho.

Haha my gear views have evolved a bit to always include wp rain gear now ;)

[Alex Herron]

Chameece fleece vest from montbell is 5.5 oz BTW

[Stephen M]

I think using your quilt on the move is asking
for trouble.

[Alex Herron]

This shouldn't even be a problem 99.99% of the time if I am assuming correctly about some things. IF the temperature will be above 25 degrees I don't see how a mid layer is necessarily warranted if a good base layer and wind jacket is used. I will also have an apex hood to keep me warm overall. I should be able to stay basically dry under the poncho and chaps and I AGREE getting the quilt out would be a LAST RESORT. But I think it could work.

I appreciate the posts though and I am hearing what you all are saying, I ask questions here to bring me back to reality sometimes. The fleece vest and long johns wouldn't be the end of the world if I had to bring them obviously.

Still curious what any1 has to say about the chaps and shorts only combo…

[Dale Wambaugh]

Bad plan, proven by many disasterous accounts. When things get bad, they spiral. I say play the movie backwards: "well yah, there this big storm and I got soaked and my quilt did too and I decided to save weight by leaving out my spare insulation and then the temperature dropped and…"

Hypothermia really sucks and it doesn't have to be below freezing to get there.Ask anyone in search and rescue!

Remember that your clothing supplements your sleeping gear too. A little more clothing allows a lighter sleep system or makes a cold night bearable.

"Trust in God and keep your powder (and insulation) dry"

Chaps and shorts? They might be cold and sticky, but not critical like insulation. I do like silkweight long johns under rain gear.

As to the puffy vest vs fleece, my Patagonia R1 vest is 0.5oz heavier than the Micro Puff, has far less loft and is not windproof. The strengths are wicking and breathability.

[todd]

You ask: "Will I miss a pair of long johns?"

I like them for sleeping warmth and, maybe even more important to me: keeping my quilt clean.

The Montbell fleece is probably a good investment. I sometimes take an old NIke 100wt fleece vest which, in its former life, was a LS crew – after the scissors I have a 5oz "vest".

[Alex Herron]

a 20 degree packs quilt weights 16.7 ounces, a 30 degree weighs 14 ounces. Obviously its makes sense weight wise to jut have a 20 degree back and not use clothing insulation to boost your bags rating.

OF course there is benefit of the clothing keeping you warmer WHILE hiking.

Dale, don't imagine that I would ever risk my down quilt getting wet! I would only do this after significant testing that showed I was able to keep it dry in the above mentioned scenario.

Most likely I would just hike faster to generate more heat!!! That has always worked for me.

SO far no one has liked the idea :)

[Hiking Malto]

While I would do a slightly different combo I don't think you are far off for one big reason. your goal is to do 30 pd which means that you will be walking or sleeping with little down time. While hiking I can not wear much more than a base layer and wind shirt or rain suit/poncho without completely overheating. If you are confident in your about to keep moving then you will likely be OK,

One other thing, do you have a long sleeve base layer. if not then I would change that.

[George F]

When you say 25-30 during August I have to assume you mean celsius. That is counting on temps betweem 77-86. You could get temps in that range but to only pack for that seems very optimistic. And at those elevations if it does rain the temp can drop a lot. The big problem with using your quilt for moving insulation is that if it does get wet there goes your big survival option, making camp and crawling in.

[Dale Wambaugh]

You might not be able to hike to generate the heat, like ducking a lightning storm or due to injury. Those are examples of the "spiraling screw up" hiking disasters. All is fine and well until you turn an ankle on an exposed ridge and….

It's supposed to be recreation! Another 8oz will make camp life cozier as well as giving you a margin of safety. If it's not cold, you get a pillow too :)

[Alex Herron]

Hi gg-man,

I am confident in my ability to keep moving, thanks to lone peak 2.0s (love those things)

I indeed have a long sleeve base layer, OR echo (love that thing as well)

Curious what your different combo is…

[David Chenault]

The problematic scenario on the CT in August will be a more protracted storm which breaks the early-afternoon, 1-2 hour cycle and hangs around for 12-24 hours of wind and rain. If you have to hike through something like that at higher altitudes, or take a longer break in minimal cover to avoid lightening, a super minimal system might get close to the edge. I think a fleece vest or shirt and tights would be good insurance for something like that. Certainly possible you hit a good weather window and only use them once or twice.

[Alex Herron]

Dale, you bring up good points and I am always dancing the line between the recreation and sport of ultralight backpacking. I think this trip will be more for the sport of it due to time constraints and how badly I want to achieve this. GIVEN That, my chances of success would probably go up if I took the mid layer for any of the reasons you state, I will probably take the vest. Long johns still up for debate though haha!

Pillow argument is a good one though, hopefully the 70 oz platy rez i plan on buying will be good for that though.

[Alex Herron]

Hi David,
Avoiding lightning is definitely a concern. I think if I had to wait something out, I would setup camp real quick and just use my quilt for insulation. In a protected area of course.

I think this is a fuzzy issue that I will have to test out for myself in protected situations to see what works for me.

Which I was going to do anyway… just though I would tap into the knowledge base here

[Dale Wambaugh]

I like the tights idea. I bought some for biking and Ive been eyeing them for hiking, like UL soft shells. I think they would rock with chaps.

Bladders for pillows are much improved with a fabric wrap. They will squirt out from under your head with the first roll.

Take a fleece or light puffy at least. Report back so we can gloat ;)

[Kathleen B]

I remember reading Andrew Skurka's account of doing the Great Western Loop and running into a freak storm, I believe in Colorado. He was traveling fast and light, of course, and had to run to try to stay warm enough and was barely successful. Too risky to mess with, in my opinion. Change your question to why wouldn't you take a mid-layer? I don't think many would try to talk you out of it.

[Hiking Malto]

"Hi gg-man,

I am confident in my ability to keep moving, thanks to lone peak 2.0s (love those things)

I indeed have a long sleeve base layer, OR echo (love that thing as well)

Curious what your different combo is…"

I use a very lightweight LS base layer and a windshirt shirt down to about freezing. if rain is involved I will go base layer and cuben rain suit. If it gets too cold for windshirt over base then I will go base layer, rain suit with my Montbell Ex light down jacket. Still need more add the windshirt.

I have only had to wear my down jacket hiking a couple times and that is generally down in single digit temperatures. I would never wear my down if it's raining. A base layer and rain suit is more than enough while on the move.

I am still evolving on lower body. for the last year I generally have been wearing shorts and tights vs. Hiking pants. This allows me to wear the tights (caplene 2) under a rain suit IF it is too cold to wear shorts only.

While this setup works wonderfully when hiking very long days, it is very lacking when having downtime in camp. Did a recent trip with a group and we stopped about three. my gear is not set up to hang around doing nothing for several hours. Normally not an issue since I hike then sleep, repeat.

I took this exact setup on the Wonderland Trail in October. We had the full range of conditions including full on snow with strong winds. I was surprised how flexible this setup has proven to be.

[Eli Zabielski]

I tried the no insulated layer once in Lost Creek Wilderness for a two day trip in late June a few years ago. I had a trekking shirt, 2.5 layer rain jacket, and 30 degree Katabatic Quilt. The forecasted low was 40 degrees so I should have been fine. But I picked a bad campsite near a river (on the Colorado Trail) and I had a pretty miserable night. I did sit ups in my bag at 3AM so I could sleep until 4AM. Then I laid awake in my bag, slightly too cold to sleep, until it was light enough to walk. I really wish I had a down jacket during this time.

Lessons learned:
1. Don't underestimate the lake effect. It was really quite a bit colder than I thought it would be.
2. When you're doing long days, you have less choices of campsites. You might find yourself in a stretch that doesn't have any good camping, but you're running out of daylight and your feet hurt a lot, so you need to camp soon. A warmer set up will give you more options for choosing a campsite. On a high mpd trip, you don't have the option to stop at the perfect site (protected, warm, good view), you mostly just hike all day until it's dark and then camp wherever you ended up (in a river valley, crappy view, bugs, exposed to wind).

As for averaging 30mpd, you have to have the right perspective. There's a big difference between doing 30s a lot and averaging 30s over an entire trip. You'll find doing 30s on days you had to resupply very hard, between hitching in and out of town and getting around in town. That means the rest of your days have to be low-mid 30s to make up for your shorter resupply days. I'd listen to Malto, he's very methodical about everything and he always seems to come up when people talk about doing sub-100 days on the PCT (27mpd average).

Also, train your face off before this, or you'll end up like me with a stress fracture from trying to average 30mpd. Even though I could get the miles in for the day, the clock was ticking for how long I could go before being stopped by injury.

[Buck Nelson]

Can you get away with it? Nobody knows.

I think leaving a lightweight insulation layer behind, hiking alone in high country, isn't a good idea, with rare exceptions. There are too many assumptions of everything going according to plan.

I can think of many times on long distance hikes when it was cold, the wind was screaming, it was raining sideways and I was wearing rain gear AND insulation. I don't want to limit my options to hiking fast to avoid hypothermia or having to call it a day. I definitely wouldn't use my sleeping bag or quilt to stay warm during the day. I want the option of adding clothing before I get cold and removing a layer before I get hot. I want to be able to use my jacket as extra insulation in my bag if I want. There's no such thing as rain gear that will never get wet under it.

If you carry a light mid-layer, you'll use it.

[Justin Baker]

Last summer I got caught in a serious post-apocalyptic storm in yosemite as I was crossing the ridge towards elewyn lake. All I was wearing was a poly base layer, rain jacket, and shorts. I got cold fast and I was facing a downhill section. I knew better than to continue so I (literally) ran down the hill and set up camp quickly. Oh, and it was a pretty bad lightning storm too. But if there was no lightning and I had some kind of mid layer I could have continued on safely.

My body has a really hard time regulating temperature. I can walk uphill in a t-shirt in freezing temperatures and be sweating. Then when I start walking downhill I start shivering in no time. It's also difficult for me to warm up on flat ground.

I've decided that my clothing set up for 3 seasons in the sierras will be a light mid layer combined with a hooded ghost whisperer down jacket. For the light mid layer I was thinking the montbell chamise vest or my cap 4 hoody. Yeah it will be a little heavier but it should work out better for me. Also, if I stop to make lunch or do some fishing and it's a little cool out, the light mid layer should be nice when the puffy is way too much.

My style of hiking is not 3mph all day long. I have a really hard time with elevation so I need to be modest with my goals.

[Justin Baker]

Also, don't forget about a warm hat. Just throwing on a beanie does the trick sometimes and you don't need to take off your rain jacket to add it.

[Paul Magnanti]

A 100wt fleece pullover weighs perhaps 8 oz for a Men's medium. Many of them are on clearance right now in quality and price ranging from Wally World to Patagucci.

A 100 wt fleece is a perfect warm layer for those moving all day.

By itself it lets moisture escape well. Under a wind shirt it helps keep you warm in light precip. Under a rain shell, it is amazingly warm while moving if it is cold and fairly warm when on breaks.

Fleece, of course, is much more tolerant of moisture than a synthetic or down puffy. I would NOt use your sleeping bag/quilt during the day.

The 100 wt fleece pullover is a very versatile, inexpensive and effective layer. Mr Skurka was mentioned. See his commentary about wishing he had a fleece in Alaska.

Walking to stay warm has its limitations. A simple fleece goes a very long way, without much price or weight penalty, in mitigating those limitations.

[Mike M]

^ this AND a lightweight vest AND a bottom base layer, could be the best 16-20 oz you've ever carried

I didn't see you mention a t-shirt, but someone commented on a long sleeve base layer- yeah definitely long sleeve

CO mountain weather is not dissimilar to MT mountain weather, it changes on a dime and sometimes violently, the ability to hunker down (or keep moving ) in bad weather is too important to skimp imo

I spent a 24 year career as a Montana game warden and was on too many SAR missions, most of the time folks were simply ill prepared, not by choice, just ill prepared- would seem silly to be ill prepared by choice

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