Weight of Counter Assault Bear Spray and Holster

[Anonymous]

Anyone have actual weights for a full Counter Assault 8.1oz canister and the holster it comes with?

Is there a smaller canister that is effective at the same range?

I am assuming I can cut down on weight creating my own holster but would like to know these weights in advance.

Thanks!

[Kodiak Firesmith]

Hey man,
I've got one at home so if nobody replies by tonight I'll weigh it for you – I feel like it's around 11oz.

I was not satisfied with the holster so I had Zimmerbuilt make me a dyneema-x one for $24 shipped that fits my Gorilla perfectly.

I would not go below the 8.1oz even if another manufacturer made one (which I don't believe they do), simply because I would only ever trust counter assault – if it's good enough for rangers it's good enough for me.

[Monte Masterson]

11.7 oz with holster

[Link .]

I knew Chris from zimmerbuilt would make something nice for a reasonable price, he is great to work with.

[Kodiak Firesmith]

Yep – if it was you who mentioned it in the MYOG thread I created a couple weeks ago – THANKS!

[Gary Dunckel]

It's good timing for your question, Aaron, as I have checked this out recently. The reason I am into this is to find the lightest way to carry the canister with FAST and SECURE access. In 2006-07 I left the stock holster in the truck and just carried the canister in a back pocket that held it perfectly. But I had to remove it when I took a short break and sat on a log. In 2008-10 I didn't go to GNP or YNP, so I didn't carry bear spray. In 2011, I simply attached the canister to the sternum strap, like this:

One day I came face-to-face with a huge grizzly, and I had to quickly access the spray. The female part of my Osprey Hornet was very short, and I had a heck of a time getting the sternum strap released. The longer female part of the strap in the above photo would probably allow fast access. But it still takes two hands to do it. I needed a better approach to carrying the canister.

So I came up with a velcro strap idea to securely attach the canister to the shoulder strap. It still took two hands–one to release the velcro and the other to grab the canister. But it is pretty quick, and very light (4 grams).

I wanted to find a way to grab the canister with just my right hand, to speed things up and be easy. I recently bought a shoulder strap pocket from Gossamer Gear, which works well and can be used for other items when not carrying bear spray. But it is nearly as heavy as the stock holster at .9 oz. It isn't very clear in the photo, with the pocket and the shoulder straps both being black.

I pulled out the cuben and designed my own canister sleeve. It has a belt loop next to the shoulder strap which I run a 1/2" strip of velcro through to secure the holster to the shoulder strap. The opening at the sleeve top has a shock cord that can be adjusted with a tiny cord lock. This allows me to tighten it just right so that it won't fall out, but the cord will stretch when I pull out the canister. Then, at the bottom of the cuben sleeve I made a cuben loop. I inserted a small Scunci hair tie into that loop and secured it to the tri-glide where you adjust the shoulder strap. This stabilizes the sleeve so that it doesn't bounce around when hiking. This cute little cuben sleeve and velcro weighs 0.4 oz., and I think it looks pretty cool.

But really, there is a very simple solution for quick one-hand operation that weighs a scant 3 grams–2 Scunci hair ties! This actually works. Some of you already know that I'm a huge fan of silicone Scunci hair ties, the best rubber bands on the planet. I always carry 5-6 extra with me, so I always have a spare in case one breaks.

Now back to your question about weights:

My original Counter Assault holster weighs 32 grams (1.12 oz.) and my full, but expired canisters weigh between 281-312 grams (9.9-11.0 oz.). I have wondered if there might be an imperceptible loss of the contents over 5-6 years, or if there is just a variation in the amount of the contents.

Last week, I went to REI and I weighed all of their 8.1 oz. canisters (there were only 6 of them on the shelf). they pretty much all weighed the same (331-333 grams, with an average of 332.5 grams, or 11.73 oz., in the original packaging). Their current holster has been put on a diet, and it now weighs an average of 25.56 grams with the minimal packaging (sample of 9 holsters). So the current holster is a bit lighter than the older, original version.

I will be presenting this information at our March Boulder Lightpackers meeting, so Gordon and Stuart and the Randys can take a coffee break when I talk about this stuff.

[Mike M]

there are smaller canisters that have the same strength (measured in Scoville units) as the approved bear sprays, but obviously less content- they also have a shorter range; these aren't bear approved by the EPA

Fox Labs (others as well) carries foggers in 2,3 and 4 oz sizes, again not approved; but you don't want to be on the wrong end of the pattern!

[Edward Jursek]

I use a MLD water bottle holder and carry it on my shoulder strap. No point in carrying the damn thing if I can't get it right away.

[Bob Gross]

I fully agree that it is desired to hold the bear spray out at arm's reach when you press the button. However, it might be smart to have a holster positioned so that you can press the button even with the container in the holster, just in case a grizz surprises you and you have only one second to think.

I will be visiting grizzly country this summer, so I think about these things.

–B.G.–

[David Thomas]

>"I will be visiting grizzly country this summer, so I think about these things."

I'm not picking on Bob with this comment. Really I'm not. But I was more nervous in Africa about the lions than I was in Alaska about brown bears. Even though a grizzly can kick a lion's ass any day. And I've seen scores more grizzlies than lions while hiking.

My point (and I do have one) is that it was the unfamiliarity of the lions, not the objective risk, that made me nervous.

When I'm in grizzly country (which is any day hike I do near home), I fasten my seat belt, don't text while I drive, and consider that if rain and wind come up, that I should be prepared. But I don't carry a gun, pepper spray, asteroid-deflection system, or Ebola vaccine with me.

But to each their own.
HYOH.
Pack for your own fears.

I'll bet on a noisy hiker over a pepper-flavored one any day. Pepper spray weighs most of a pound. Calling out weighs nothing. And is more effective.

[Katherine .]

"But really, there is a very simple solution for quick one-hand operation that weighs a scant 3 grams–2 Scunci hair ties! This actually works. Some of you already know that I'm a huge fan of silicone Scunci hair ties, the best rubber bands on the planet. I always carry 5-6 extra with me, so I always have a spare in case one breaks."

Whoa, are the silicon ones more advance than the simple "No damage" ones? Those eventually blow-out at the point-of-juncture for me. Are these totally seamless?

More important, what does it mean that I'm getting hair accessory advice on BPL?

Dual use if I ever need pepper spray.

[Gary Dunckel]

Bob, you really don't want to have the spray can anywhere near your face when you fire it, sun glasses or not. The spray pattern can be quite erratic. Shooting it from the hip could prove disasterous to the shooter. You'll probably get a bit on your hand too, so watch for that, and don't rub your eyes afterwards.

Katherine, the silicone Scuncis have no seams, unlike the fabric ones. They're the bomber new age rubber band, very strong. Go out and buy some and check them out.

[Bob Gross]

David, I agree. I was more worried about lions in East Africa than I was about the grizzlies in Alaska. Even though I don't worry so much, I sometimes think about the situation in advance so that I know I still have the right solution.

It was kind of odd one time when I was hiking in Yellowstone. I started hiking on one trail, and I was carrying bear spray. At the end of the day, I came out at another place, and there was a big NPS sign there saying that the trail was closed because of bear control. I later learned that a person had been killed by a bear. It was only after I was off the trail that I discovered that I should not have been on it. Oh, well.

–B.G.–

[Mike W]

>> Calling out weighs nothing. And is more effective.<<

I'd be interested in seeing the data that proves that making noise would have saved people that have been attacked by bears. It may be true in a few cases but show me the data.

Your presumption also rules out predatory attacks (fortunately for you David, you've been on the "right side" of statistics so far… let's hope your luck holds, because the 12 oz bottle of spray would sure be missed if the bear decides to show you why he's at the top of the food chain).

Back to the OP's original question, my spray + holster weighs 12 ounces. I have purchased lighter holsters but didn't like the way they secured the spray. I've found that if the top of the bottle isn't covered by a flap the safety clip can be pulled and that's a real hazard. To me, it's worth the extra ounce for a good holster that covers the entire top of the spray can.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the great information everyone.

Gary, have you had any issues with the canister shifting and falling out the bottom of those scuncis? I feel like it would only hold still if there was a lip or some kind of texture on the can for more friction with the bands, but maybe those scuncis are tighter around it than I think.

[Gary Dunckel]

Aaron, I came up with the Scunci idea just a few weeks ago, and I've only field tested it a couple times while walking my new pack in the nearby flat trails of my closest open space area. I wasn't bushwhacking or bouncing around, but the canister seemed pretty secure. It can dance around a little, but no biggie. As far as having a lip, I think if the canister slipped downward the finger ring would get hung up on the top Scunci. We'll see how it really works next summer. However, I will probably go with my MYOG cuben holster, just because it's so much cooler with just an 8 gram penalty.

Now, about griz vs. lions, I will place my bet on a fully mature African male lion over a 500 pound griz. The lion is quicker and can probably run faster. They take out cape buffalo from time to time, which is no mean feat. But the AK brown bears are bigger, and the ones on Kodiak are enormous–this must certainly be factored in. I think we need to get ESPN to stage an event–put an agitated 1000 pound brown bear, the biggest very hungry male lion we can find, and an average cape buffalo (they all have serious attitudes) in a very secure arena, and you know, see what happens. I'd probably place a bet on each of them, as a hedge.

Making some non-threatening noise is probably good for letting a griz know where you are, but maybe not so good for alerting a lion about your presence. I'm not sure that anything works with a cape buffalo. One time we were cruising in a power boat near the shore of Lake Kariba, and a huge buffalo came out of hiding and forcefully charged toward us 50 feet into the water, snorting and grunting and generally letting us know that we weren't at all welcome there. Fortunately, we had a fast boat.

[Greg Mihalik]

"I'd be interested in seeing the data that proves that making noise would have saved people that have been attacked by bears. It may be true in a few cases but show me the data."

I don't think double blind crossover experiments involving humans would make it past the ethics committee.

[Kodiak Firesmith]

So here are pics of the holster that Zimmerbuilt made for me for $24.

It's a custom job made of Dyneema-x for the main material and Xpac on the back for extra durability. Saves .4oz over the included holster, but more importantly it is much more securely attached to my GG Gorilla because it was made custom for the strap attachments.

https://plus.google.com/photos/102768122264957648302/albums/6115733894750244065

On initial impressions, I'd give the Zimmerbuilt holster a strong 4.75/5, my only *minor* gripe is that it's a bit more material than is needed IMO based on my measurements that I sent in. That said, it may just be Chris' wisdom in such things as I can see it being easier to release the can when needed quicker with the fit he chose, and the drawstring at the top works perfectly for holding it in place until it's needed.

Chris selects great materials and hardware for the job, and had full design control over the holster – and it turned out great.

Zimmerbuilt itself gets 5/5 from me – fair price and very quick turnaround. A pleasure to shop from. If only he made clothing!

[BlackHatGuy]

"I don't think double blind crossover experiments involving humans would make it past the ethics committee."

LOL!

[David Thomas]

There's solid data on party size versus fatal attacks. Most attacks are on solo hikers. Less so on pairs. Even less common on 3-person groups. Vanishing so above that.

So, how to interpret that data? Some say a predatory black bear is far less likely to attack a group and I don't disagree. But for Grizzlies, where surprise encounters are often the precipitating event, the inherent noise of large groups helps both species survive to hike another day.

I, as a usual solo hiker, am always striding right into groups of 3, 4, or 5 humans who didn't hear me coming. But I heard them a LONG ways away. All my and my wife's close grizzly encounters have been in environments with background and us, stupidly, not making noise. None (also known as the number 0) have happened when we are yakking it up. Either because we're having a discussion or are intentional making noise ("Hey bear, hi bear, Ho bear!").

I'm not arguing that making noise is foolproof. But my sense is that noise eliminates at least 80-85% of human-bear interactions.

[Bob Gross]

David, does any of that change when it is a grizzly sow with cubs? According to legend, they are the most dangerous.

–B.G.–

[Ross L]

Back in the early nineties, I spent 4 summers in the Mackenzie Mountains, Northwest Territories, Canada. During that time I had several encounters with predatory male grizzlies. On one solo trek, I spotted a grizzly several hundred yards ahead in mixed semi open buckbrush and willow. While attempting a detour around him, I was calling out to alert him of my presence. Big mistake. He came in at a very brisk walk and ears back. In spite of by best efforts, I was forced to dispatch him at 15 feet. Now when I spot a bear ahead, I quietly detour around him. I must say that over the past 30 years travelling in prime bear country I have found the grizzlies of northern Canada to be far more predatory than the ones in southern Canada(BC). My belief is that northern bears rarely if ever encounter humans, whereas the southern bears have been hunted for a hundred years and have more or less learned to keep their distance.

[David Thomas]

Ross, interesting (and scary) data points. I'm hiking in areas where black and brown bears are hunted, so announcing that a human is coming is usually helpful.

Bob, I think making noise helps the most with momma and cubs, giving her warning to move away.

[jimmy b]

FWIW the wife and I have hiked numerous times in YNP and in GNP. We have spotted many a Grizzly while traveling through the parks but I am happy to say we have never had an on trail encounter with a brown bear. We hike cautiously making noise with a great awareness of the terrain ahead and behind us. Having said that I would never be caught without a can of bear spray in Grizzly country. I just don't see the problem hoofing the extra ounces when it is such an effective means of deterring attacks. I for one don't put a lot of faith in or claim to know what is actually going on in the mind of a wild animal let alone most people I know. Making noise seems to work on a number of animals and that is fine. I don't carry spray to deter those particular bears. It is the animal that I cannot safely predict its actions that I carry the deterrent for. Maybe the animal is predatory, hungry, wounded or just pissed off for some reason. If you study behaviors you will find people are about as predictable as wild animals, perhaps because we are not that much more evolved in our behaviors. I don't lock my doors at night because I am worrisome about the majority of the human race. Just the predatory types. IMO its generally foolish to generalize behaviors and suggest that all critters will play ball similarly. In the end at least be aware that without a greater deterrent than making noise you are accepting more risk. Also be aware that bear spray is not a guarantee that things will end well either.

One last note is that in a whole lot of conditions sound is not traveling as you may perceive it to be. Not that you are not making noise but it does no good if its not being heard due to the conditions and lets face it we cant predict the particular attention level of the bear either. If these were absolutes there would be no such thing as animal encounters to begin with. Of course in the end HYOH YMMV and respect to all…

jimmyb

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