Waterproof-Breathable Technologies

[Bryan Redd]

I live in the Pacfic NW where wet & cool weather is frequent. It is under these conditions that I think pit zips help to move the vapor out before it condenses. I believe this is particularily important when I’m working hard and generating alot of body heat and moisture.

[Dr. John Reynolds]

I sent this email to Integral Designs several days ago:

Any chance of adding pit zips to the eVENT jacket so I could dump my wind
> shirt? Even the super characteristics of this fabric need ventilation
> help
> in the relatively humid Southeast where I live.

and got this back today:

Thanks for the feedback. We have had 3 such requests in the past few days,
and will probably be adding another model with extra features for high
activity workouts in wet, humid conditions.

[Colin Thomas]

I had e-mailed them before asking about having a modified jacket eVENT jacket made and they told me no. They are too busy right now and cannot do special type orders.

What I would like to see from them is an eVENT jacket without a hood and in a smock design. Also add a few inches in the hem length. Instead of the chest zipper pocket maybe put a horizontal zipper pocket just below the half zip main zipper like the Patagonia Specter.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

I seem to remember that the article about W/B technologies stated that eVent en Dryskin had a similar vapour permeability but that differed in air permeability.
Does this mean that eVent (and other W/B technogies like GTX, …) act like a 100 % air barrier or is this incorrect and is it somewhat air permeable ?

[Michael Martin]

I have some eVent gear and it is *slightly* air permeable — more than any other wp/b fabric I’ve seen, but not close to uncoated and/or stretch-woven nylons. I’m curious whether it has enough air-permeability to use in a fully enclosed bivy sack without suffocating. But, that’s one experiment I’m not willing to try. ;)

[Bernard Shaw]

I think that BPL commented on a form of Gore-tex that was either being produced or on a trial basis that had promotional
material stating that it was O2 and CO2 permeable, and could be used this way in tents and bivies, i.e., enclosed. Whethe this is an acceptable risk or not, is another matter, but I also would really be interested to know if anyone has any data on this also!

[Michael Martin]

Outdoor Designs is using an air-permeable Gore fabric called “Exchange Lite” in their tents and Bivies. Anybody have more information about this fabric? Substantial air permeability could potentially greatly improve breathability — maybe challange eVent!

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

As far as I know, Gore removed the oleophobic PU layer in the exchangelite gore-tex because in bivys and tents this is less important. I don’t think it can be applied to clothing.

[Bernard Shaw]

Sorry if already asked and answered, but is there a known reason for why eVent so very very slow to come onto market, since it is so much better. Are there problems with it, or is this a production ramp up factor, or just hard to penetrate market with other major players having exclusive clout, or ?

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Propably the biggest reason why eVent has such difficulty to get a good market penetration, is the commercial strength of the competitors. Afaik, none of the companies using gore-tex have switched to eVent. I also don’t know if BHA has an alternative for every Gore product (XCR, paclite, WS, WS soft shell, WS N2S, dryloft, …). This could be a major factor for companies who have a broad range of Gore products.

[Bernard Shaw]

Thanks Tom, you got me thinking, has Gore and others been able to convince most people that they don’t need anything better, like the why get a better mouse trap, the one you have is good enough?

Is it only a small number of enthusiast geeks that would value the difference and pay for the new eVent product?

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Yes, indeed I think Gore has anyone convinced that they have the ultimate mouse trap. I know that this isn’t true, you know it too and a bunch of other ‘freaks’ but that’s it. Most people believe that Gore is the holy grail. So if you want something really good, you need Gore. It can take a while before eVent can earn its share of the market. Don’t forget, it has take Gore 10 years or longer to get into the position they have now and they just had to fill in an empty space because they were the first. eVent doesn’t have that comfortable position and so they need a strong PR campaign to counter their underdog position.
The perfect example to show how difficult this is, is the case of Lowe Alpine. At least in Europe (and I guess in the US too)they’re a well know brand. So when they opted for eVent in 2003, that was a strong signal for eVent. Unfortunately, in 2004 Lowe Alpine changed to Gore, just because the mother company, Asolo, has used Gore products for years.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

After reading the article about WP/B technologies again, I noted some things which I hope Alan can explain.
1) Looking at the graphs, I notice that there is a small increase in moisture transpiration rate for eVENT,… Temperature and vapour flux are constant so the only variable is relative humidity, so base on these graphs it looks like there is an influence from humidity which I can’t explain myself. The only thing I can think of is that the observed differences are not statisticaly significant. Can you think of another reason ?
2) Triple Point Ceramic is being described as a microporous coating so one would expect a flat curve but this is definetely not the case. The increase looks too big not to be insignificant. Any reason ?
3) Some technologies use a so called anti-condenstation mechanism e.g. Entrant G2XT, AIMMS technology in Triple Point Ceramic, eVENT with Transactive technology (use by German company Vaude) which makes it possible to minimise condensation. Since condensation is water in a liquid form, this sounds like some form of hydrophilic technology (and you would expect that it decreases the breathability). But if e.g. Entrant G2 XT uses a hydrophilic layer, this should show in the graphs which it doesn’t. Combining a hydrophilic layer with eVENT seems absurd. So do you have any idea how such an anti-condensation technology could work ?

And finally, remembering the article about the new jackets from Patagonia and Mont Bell for 2005, is there any chance that you will be able to discuss the technology behind these jackets and the new insights about moisture transport in the near future ?

[Ryan Jordan]

Just received this jacket, and will post first thoughts in a new thread in “The G Spot” forum (click here) in a few minutes.

[Colin Thomas]

I just got an e-mail back from Patagonia about their H2No wp/b barrier. A lot of people have been saying lately that the H2No is actually Entrant so I asked them and they told me it is not. It is their own proprietary tech. Here is what they said.

H2No is not Entrant or any other “off the shelf” technology that
Patagonia buys and then renames. If we were buying it off the shelf,
Gore, Entrant, eVent, etc. we would use our vendors commercial names, there is simply more equity in Gore than H2No. So, H2No is our own proprietary technology.

I hope this helps fix the confusion around the H2No barrier Patagonia uses.

[Robert Mulligan]

Anybody have any experience with “Hydroflex” material? Marketed as waterproof/breathable. I think it is essentially a urethane coating on nylon. I am looking at a lightweight hoodless jacket to use while rowing (lots of heat and sweat produced). Durability (mechanical, saltwater, and UV) and breathabilty are concerns of mine. Any thoughts?
RM

[Anonymous]

Breathability WVTR vs. Waterproofness

Whilst comparing all articles on materials
and looking at their breathability and waterproofness charts I came to to the conclusion that there is almost no optimal material for extreme activity in outer conditions. In may be fine to walk around in the rain wearing an eVent jacket and staying dry, but once you want a garment for activities like snowboarding were you sometimes hit wet sufaces with greater pressure eVent isn’t gonna keep you dry, especially not after several wash cycles. There is a good reason why they don’t state their Water-proofness in(mmH2O) on their webpage. I owe an Entrant Protective R_360 Series snowboard jaket and a GTX-XCR Arcteryx Fission SV Jacket, while my friend used a Event sleeping bag and be both used several pants from different brands equiped with all kinds of membranes.
In our humble opinion, 10.000 mmH20 and more should be a given value to keep the
garment waterproof after several cycles in extreme conditions. Regarding the breathability we found that XCR behaved best out of the “really waterproof ones”.

Athough we would like to try ENTRANT HB from Toray and Texapore O3 from JackWolfskin. They seem very promising.

Wolfskin says: “3-ply laminate Texapore O3 achieves a sensationally high moisture vapour transmission of 30000 g/sq m/24h, whilst retaining the fabric’s awesome 20,000 water column waterproof performance. A pore-free membrane is bonded in a 3-ply laminate with a super-lightweight yet high tearstrength 30D ripstop nylon face fabric and a thin nylon tricot material inside. The killer app is a newly developed catalyst element between the membrane and the face fabric, which accelerates the moisture transmission from the inside to the outside atmosphere and makes the 30, 000g/m2/24h MVTR possible without adversely affecting the high waterproof spec (approx. 20,000mm water column). The new 3-ply laminate allows the construction of highly functional, climate-controlled weatherproof apparel with a super-low weight and compact pack size. ” Source: http://www.jackwolfskin.de/
I would like to see that one in your charts to..

Torant on the other hand gives solid values under different measuring methods what I really apreciate. Check the specs on http://www.torayentrant.com No other producer gives that clear statements as they do.

Said all that I think it’s just fair to compare garments with both values.
When you buy a car you don’t look just for consumption values but also for performance..

[paul johnson]

Anon.,

interesting post. more info/clarification req’d, please.

also, i discovered that Toray site last year. you’re right – great info.

>>”after several wash cycles”

i’m confused. i thought wash cycles were an important issue for DWR finishes and WP/B coatings that could be abraided away. eVENT is neither. are you saying that washing damages the eVENT membrane and thus moisture that penetrates the outer layer of the laminant will pass through the “wash-damaged” eVENT ePTFE layer? if so, i could understand a 2-layer laminant being more susceptible than a 3-layer. a 2-layer fabric would expose the PTFE layer directly to mechanical abraision while washing. eVENT is a 3-layer laminant – at least the rainwear and bivies i own. if washing damages the eVENT membrane, then why not any PTFE membrane?

[Anonymous]

why >>”after several wash cycles” ?

well, the DWR decreases with each one and the membrane is being stretched and bent which causes probably tiny holes or fractures in the structure.
It doesn’t apply just to eVent but to any of those tested above. You can even see the impact in the values on tonrants page. They state their Water-proofness
(mmH2O) values in two categories. First one is initial and the second one afer 10 wash cycles with noticeable differences. What does that tell you…
Torant is the most frank one with their performance charts.
Try to think you the waterprofness as of colours on your T-shirt which fade after every single one a bitte more and more..

Regarding the bivy I think you are gonna be fine with eVent unless you are going hardcore on it. I use the USMC Gore-tex Bivy. They is a reason why the US Army uses certain materials for heavy-duty apps. Take canada goose (http://www.canada-goose.com) with their jackets being used at the South Pole each year by the National Science Foundation division of Polar Research. They dont use any of the membranes mentioned above. Cuz their is no reason to. They have different demands in so much different envinonments. I guess most ppl here are active backpackers or hikers with also different demands such as breathibility being one of the top ones.. Hope this helps.

[paul johnson]

Montbell, for several, not all, of their proprietary WP/B and DWR technologies, list initial WP, as well as B, and then WP after 10 or 20 washes – it varies. typically, 20,000 decreases to either 15,000 or 10,000 after the 10 (or 20) washes). this phenomenon is understood. i just needed clarification on whether you meant of the ePTFE laminants, only eVENT had problems. you clarified your meaning quite adequately in your reply. thank you.

to be frank, for most, not all, of my trail gear, i rarely wash my trail only gear (maybe that’s why it’s hard for me to find trekking buds???). exceptions are Epic which has its WP characteristics improved by gentle cycle washing for 6 min. with plain soap (NOT detergents), some wind shells (and then DWR is re-applied) and merino wool: base and mid layers, socks, and underwear which get either hand washed or machine washed on a special delicate cycle (intermittent partial rotation of the agitator for 6 min; followed by gentle rinse and gentle spin) and then air dryed flat.

[David Olsen]

I made up some samples of gaiters and bivy
sacks in eVent as well as paclite, 2 layer xcr
and Epic.

I gave some of the Stretch Epic and
some 3 layer eVent gaiters to one of my friends
who works at in the sales dept. at Patagonia to try for backcountry skiing. Unscientific field tests indicated that the more open weave of the Epic
stretch was much cooler than the eVent when
skinning uphill etc and were plenty waterproof for
Sierra conditions. I asked him if Patagonia was
going to use some eVent and he said they had
tested it and found that it didn’t hold up over time.
Though they use Gore products, they also use
other brands too (they helped develop Epic), so
I don’t believe Gore has them by the shorthairs.
They are also have a great return policy (they
can afford to with the prices they charge). Send
in a 15 year old pile jacket cause the zipper wore
out and see what I mean. So they are looking for
durable stuff.

I also have a bivy sack made up of both the heavier
3 layer eVent and Goretex and hope someone will
buy it and try it to see if they can see a difference
in the real world.

[john Tier]

Respectfully, I disagree with your view of breathability during the rain…In 2003 while hikeing in a down pour on the AT in shorts and a silk weight patagonia t shirt, I was soaked and then the temperature dropped 20 degrees…I decided to put on my O2 Rainwear jacket, by Rainshield, a $29 item (perhaps that is why it works so well), since I had over an hour of hiking yet…I slowed the pace for safety on the rocks and because I routinely practice slowing the last hour of the day to “hike my clothing dry”… When I arrived at Woods Hole Hostel and stipped off my jacket the shirt was abolutely dry, it was still raining.

Personally, I believe that taking advantage of any technology is a matter learning what advantage the technology has and adjusting your actions/habits to take advantage of the benefits… In this case matching the evaporation rate and the breathability was the key… Conversely, Physical activity at a level to over power such a system will drench one with sweat from within…

Pan

I do agree that the claims of many products are exaggerated… often in direct proportion to the items “whistles and bells” and cost.

[Vick Hines]

Jack,
I agree. I’ve had similar experiences with O2 gear. Boy! I have spent too much on rain gear. Disgusting.

[Zefiryn J.]

I’m about to order the Rock and Ice Parka from http://www.featheredfriends.com/.
Now I gotta choose between epic or event. I haven’t touched either one and don’t really know which one feels more comfortable. I guess epic does cuz it’s wool. What about event?
Another thing is the breathibility. Since this is a pretty warm jacket I might break a sweat. Reading the charts tells me go with event. What do you guys think of that? Oh and how noisy are they?

[Author]

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