Alcohol Stove Users Only

[Ben H.]

Ok, I move pretty slow in MYOG, but I finally got around to trying out the platinum thermocouple wire in a MYOG catalytic stove lighter. It was a big failure. I saw no evidence that the wire was heating up when exposed to the Methanol.

Here is what I did in incompetent detail:

1) Acquired materials: I bought surplus laboratory platinum thermocouple wire from ebay (10 inches of 0.003" dia wire for $1.75/inch). I bought a couple bottles of "HEET" from an autoparts store. I didn't even have an alcohol stove before I started, so I got an empty cat food can from my neighbor.

2) Make a fancee feast stove: I had a cheap hole punch laying around that you can rotate different size holes into position. I knew it wasn't the best hole punch to use, but it had a nice reach and I had it in my possession. Went to punch the first hole and it shattered.

3) Acquire new hole punch: Picked up a heavier duty hole punch at Joanne Fabrics. It is the same one that Skurka recommends on his MYOG fancee feast blog post.

4) Make a fancee feast stove attempt #2: Went pretty smoothly and heated up a pot of water pretty easily with methanol "HEET" as a fuel.

5) Make the catalytic electrode: I wrapped the wire around the shaft of a 3/32" drill bit to make a nice tight coil. I probably used about 2" of the wire.

6) Burn off the impurities: They say pretty explicitly for these lighters that you need to burn off any impurities (such as dirt or oils) that may have collected on the outside of the electrode). I fired up the alcohol stove again, picked up the platinum coil with a pair of tweezers and held it under the flame for a little while.

7) Test: When the stove burned out, I added some more methanol back in, took the coil by the tweezers, and waved it around above the methanol. I tried various locations. I tried burning off the impurities again, but nothing seem to happen. I saw no indication that the coil was getting hot much less igniting the methanol.

Closing thoughts: My guess is that either the wire I got isn't pure platinum (but everything I have read seems to indicate that it is) or these catalytic lighters use something other than pure platinum. I plan on doing some more research on catalytic reactions to see if I should be using something else. Anyone else have any ideas?

[Dan Yeruski]

Use a small diameter tube 1/2" larger than your coil. Have it 1" deep. Put in 2ml of HEET in yellow bottle. Place platinum coil 1/2" down into tube to see if it glows.

[Ben H.]

I think that is probably a good idea (did you ever try to light a fancee feast stove with your catalyst?). I have done some more research on this. The catalytic reaction is methanol (CH3OH) in the presence of platinum (Pt) decomposes into formaldehyde (CH2O) and hydrogen (H2). In that regards, the oxygen fouls the catalytic reaction. Re-examining the lighter, you dip the platinum into the barrel where it is completely surrounded by methanol gas. This heats up the wire (and produces H2 which is very! combustible) but since there is no oxygen, combustion does not occur. As you pull the, now hot, catalyst out you transition through a zone of optimal oxygen/methanol/hydrogen mixture for combustion and the lighter lights up. A more confined space might be necessary to start the reaction.

I also think the thickness of the wire is an important factor. You need a high surface area to volume ratio (which means the thinner the wire the better). The reaction starts very slowly at room temperature. The small amount of heat produced needs to warm up the wire. The thicker the wire, the higher its thermal capacity is and the less it will warm up. I am using pretty darn thin wire (0.003"), but maybe it is still too thick. I might have to get some 0.001" wire.

I found this great video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSdBB1vBDKY

Notice he has to heat the wire up first, I believe that is because the wire is too thick to start at room temperature. Also, notice that as more oxygen diffuses into the Erlenmeyer flask the brightness of the wire goes down. And when combustion occurs, the wire stops glowing completely. That indicates to me that oxygen fouls the catalytic reaction.

[Dan Yeruski]

I've been able to light a half size Fancee Feest stove. Inside diameter is 1.5" x 1.25" deep.

You need to see if your wire will actually get red hot in a small environment.

There is a vintage lighter that is about the size of a lipstick tube that has the wire mounted inside of it. Take the cap off and wave the container around till oxygen gets inside to mix with fuel and heat. My mother had one like that way back when. That lighter design was taken off the market because of safety reason. Cap would come off while in womens purse and cause a fire.

I'll see if I can find a photo of that type.

[Ben H.]

Failed Attempt #2:

I decided to give it another try last night. In order to try and kickstart the reaction I tried a more confined volume (less oxygen) and higher temperature (higher reaction rate).

1) I grabbed a glass shotglass. Added a little HEET, lit it on fire with a lighter, and used the methanol flame to burn off any impurities on the wire.

2) By the time the flame burned out, the shot glass was too hot to touch (and stayed hot throughout the experiment). I added some more HEET back in. I used my tweezers and brought the coil of platinum into the shot glass. I tried several locations and got nothing… no indications the wire was getting hot. I think this is pretty damning because the shot glass was so hot it had to be kicking out quite a bit of methanol vapor.

3) I even tried dipping the coil in the liquid HEET. Nothing. Then I thought lets see if I get the wire hot before I expose it to the methanol (like the youtube video on the experiment). I lit the liquid on the coil on fire. It burned briefly and got red hot. As quickly as I could after the flame went out I brought it back in the shot glass. Again nothing.

4) Next I tried going to a smaller container. I couldn't find anything metal or glass readily available so I grabbed the cap off a 16 oz water bottle (warning do not try this at home. You should not use a meltable container to try and contain a liquid on fire). Again nothing.

5) I wanted to try adding a wick. You definitely should not use a flammable wick (much less with a plastic container) but I didn't have anything that wasn't flammable. I tore off a small piece of cardboard and stood it up in the pool of HEET. The cardboard was soon saturated in methanol. I tried various locations around the cardboard and again nothing.

I am becoming more and more convinced I got ripped off by the seller on ebay. If this wire is platinum one of these experiments should have started reacting. I am thinking about buying the thinner wire from Omega.

[steven franchuk]

Other than the omega wire you might want to try:

1. A straight piece of wire instead of a coil. The lighter in the video used straight wire.

2. The tweezers might be acting as a heat sink. If the tweezers keep the coil cold nothing will happen.

3. Perhaps the drill bit you used coated the wire with iron and perhaps that blocks the reaction. If you make another coil try a tooth pick instead.

[Dan Yeruski]

Start over. Get the .001 pure platinum.

I have a few of these lighters brand new in the box that I can share for a small fee. Be the first on your trail to have one of these vintage marvels. :-)

[Gregory Stein]

Dan, first of all thanks for the Starlyte stove you've shipped to Israel. Got it yesterday. Looks damn good :)

Now, regarding the lighter, do you think 0.005 wire would be good? I found some on ebay and wanted to order for making lighter.
Also how much weigh those lighters you can sell? And how much it will cost (PM me if you want to)?

Is there any problem you can think of to use this lighter with starlyte stove? Will it provide enough evaporation to start the reaction if I hold the wire close to it? Or separated container is required? I think of some design for the lighter… Need to experiment with it.

Regards, Greg.

[Dan Yeruski]

Hello Gregory. Thank you for your interest in the StarLyte and this unique lighter.

I'll have to experiment to see if I can light the StarLyte with it.

The lighter inside a shipping box weighs 2.5 ounces and the cost to ship is $9.45

I'll send you a PM.

I don't think .005 wire will get hot. Get .001 or .002 pure platinum wire.

Lots of interesting archeological work going on in your country.

[Ben H.]

Greg,

I wouldn't get the 0.005 stuff from ebay. I bought the 0.003 stuff from ebay (probably the same seller) and it does not seem to work at all. Either it is too thick or (I think more likely) not pure platinum.

[Gregory Stein]

Guys,

After some math, I concluded that in order to make same ratio of external wire area to its mass for 0.005 wire, you must flatten it by factor of 2 (2.2 more precisely). In this case you will have same area/weight ratio and therefore same effect. If you flatten it further you can gain even faster reaction, but it is hard to do for such a thin wire.

I think I found out how to do it. Will update later when I finish experimenting…

[Gregory Stein]

In order to check if that wire is really platinum:
0) weigh it in a lab (I can do it)
1) connect the wire to electricity (low voltage – battery?) and try to do the reaction again.
2) put one end of the wire into H2SO4/HCl/HNO3 to test for platinum (I can do it)
…

Will report after tests.

[Dan Yeruski]

Pounding it to size is an age old way of forming. I like the experimenting being done on this project. Keep up the good work. I'm going to ad a small cylinder of carbon felt to a Fancee Feest stove to make it work. I'll call it the "geek" stove. It will include the "Platinum Probe" I'll see if I can do a video of it today.

[Dan Yeruski]

Coming soon: the "GEEK" STOVE

Platinum ignitor.

[Gregory Stein]

Intriguing… Can't wait to see it. Will you post a video of it also?

[Dan Yeruski]

Yes, a video will be uploaded also. How are you doing on your wire reduction project?

[Dan Yeruski]

View it at youtube

[Gregory Stein]

Dan, what diameter of the wire in that lighter? Why did you punch the hole in the mesh of your stove? It gives more evaporation? Or have you distributed the fiberglass in the stove differently?

As I see it, greater area of evaporation is needed for providing more vapors. I think that absorbent like the fiberglass in your stoves is good for making evaporation faster. After I saw your video (thanks), I even confirm this because sometimes you need to find good spot above the stove where vapors of methanol are more concentrated.

Have you tried to light it in wind?

My current project is to make the lighter as follows: spiraled platinum wire within small cylinder open on both sides. This cylinder will act like a tiny windscreen. In order to light the Starlyte stove you need to put it on the opening and wait a little.

Version two of it: two cylinders. One inside of another with greater diameter, both same height. The wire is inside the middle cylinder. There is some gap between cylinders, and outer cylinder is same diameter as Starlyte stove. While the wire in the center gets hotter, the gas (formaldehyde, water, vapors of methanol and air) goes up causing lower pressure in it. Therefore the air (oxygen most importantly) is sucked from space between inner and outer cylinder through the Starlyte stove, taking necessary methanol vapors for the reaction.

Have to try them both. What I'm trying to do is to get the lighter work in windy conditions.

Regards, Greg.

[Dan Yeruski]

I'm guessing the wire diameter is .001 or less.

The hole in the StarLyte is a duplication of the original lighter. Placing the platinum wires in the StarLyte hole makes it work. After initial ignition the burner heats up and gives off an enormous amount of vapour that is easily lit by holding the wire above the burner.

I have not tried to light it in the wind. That test will come next.

Greg, have you been able to make the wire small enough to glow red in the presence of the alcohol?

For now, the GEEK stove is the only one in the world. :-)))

Good luck on your DIY project.

[Gregory Stein]

Dan, the wire is in the lab now for the tests for platinum. When I'll get to it, I will continue and report. Yes I got it why you made a hole. Congrats on your success with the geek stove!

[Ben H.]

Thanks Dan!

looks good. It sounds like you had to play around a bit to get a stove configuration that lit easily. Is that correct?

My own project has been at a standstill since I have been traveling for work. I did pick up a glow plug for an rc airplane. It has a little platinum coil in it and it only cost about $7. The wire is much thicker than the 0.003" stuff I have though, so I don't hold much hope of getting a reaction out of it at room temps.

[Dan Yeruski]

The ignighter has a small black ball at end where 2 wires meet. No dought it plays a big part in ignition/thermal reaction.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Platinum black (Pt black) is a fine powder of platinum with good catalytic properties. The name of platinum black is due to its black color.

Platinum black is widely used as a thin film covering solid platinum metal, forming platinum electrodes for applications in electrochemistry. The process of covering platinum electrodes with such a layer of platinum black is called "platinization of platinum". The platinized platinum has a true surface area much higher than the geometrical surface area of the electrode and, therefore, exhibits catalytic action superior to that of shiny platinum.

Platinum black powder is used as a catalyst in proton exchange membrane fuel cells. In common practice, the platinum black is either sprayed or hot pressed onto the membrane or gas diffusion layer. A suspension of platinum black and carbon powder in ethanol-water solutions serves to optimize the uniformity of the coating, electrical conductivity, and in the case of application to the membrane, to prevent dehydration of the membrane during the application.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum_black

[Dean F.]

I assume that something like this is far too thick?

http://www.crscientific.com/platinumwire.html

[Dan Yeruski]

Yes, I think it's too thick of a wire. It looks like the wire is used to support a piece of mineral/rock in the 1/4" loop and then placed into a flame to be analized.

It needs to be in the .001 range.

[Gregory Stein]

Update:

First of all it is platinum. Several tests we made in a lab shows it is pure platinum.
So far no success with the ignition. But I don't give up. I have still some ideas to try. I'm trying to increase the area while retain thermal weight. Currently after flatten the piece of platinum wire to thin sheet I want to put it between two sheets of sandpaper and pressurize so that platinum will get that texture and therefore will have greater area. I'll try to do that with different sandpaper size.

Any ideas are welcome!

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