Forum Replies Created
Sep 28, 2020 at 10:05 pm #3677802
No idea where you live, but in many areas there are shops that off a variety of packs that can be tried on, just like footwear. You can bring a couple of pack-sized stuff sacks filled with the weight you expect to carry. Without the weight, trying on an empty packs doesn’t say much.
Before I started making my own packs, that was the only approach that worked for me, and also saved a heck of a lot of money and costs of shipping back and forth.Sep 28, 2020 at 9:53 pm #3677801
Assume the 28 lbs. included food at the outset. You could repackage your food with a small bag heat sealer. After sealing and trimming off the excess, the bags could hold just the right amount to mix the contents with one cup of boiling water and simmered. I lean toward the mini maceroni pasta, quick rice, or noodles, with a freeze dried meat bought in no. 10 cans. Those are simmered until soft, and then a very tiny package of seasoning and thickener, and even dried veggies, is added. Except for the freeze dried, most of the ingredients can be bought in a large supermarket. Experiment at home with dinners that taste good, and they will taste even better when backpacking.
For breakfast, instant BF and milk powder, and best quality instant coffee were packaged together the same way, again with the right amount to mix with one cup of water. All of this makes for quick meals, and dried fruit and energy bars can be added to the food bag which goes into an old kevlar Ursack.
This not only reduced my food weight for 5-10 days by more than half, but made meals much quicker and easier.
As regards water proof packs, it may be best to seal the sleeping gear in a separate bag inside the stuff sack, especially in an area that gets even more rain than we do. Ditto for electronic gear sealed in much smaller lock closure bags. But I don’t want the extra weight and inconvenience of a roll top closure, and find that older style packs, if made with very light waterproof fabric, provide plenty of protection to supplement waterproof stuff sacks for clothing, a tent, and other items. As was noted, there are some nice packs made with waterproof material, much lighter than used to be the case.Sep 26, 2020 at 1:40 am #3677496
From Vango’s page for the Spirit 300+ – date uncertain (weight has been added):
“Powerlite Alloy poles 7001-T6 alloy light, flexible and durable”
Suggest the T6 (#6 temper) may be the reason for the pole collapse. Have no trouble bending T6 with a Ridgid ratchet bender, and would never use it for a hooped tent pole.
Congrats on ID-ing the TT Rainbow. Darned if I can make it out. If it is a Rainbow, the pole would be Easton 340, with a T9 temper. Very strong. So I think David is right about the absence of guyouts being the weak point.
As for the Big Agnes; named after a nice mountain in CO, but the tents should be limited to campgrounds or well protected areas, and not for a fair comparison of free-standing to tunnel tents.
Wonder how many of these pics Roger has stashed away.Sep 24, 2020 at 4:30 pm #3677331
“[T] the final place of refuge in 1992 for Christopher McCandless, the young man whose story was made famous by the 1996 Jon Krakauer book, Into the Wild.”Sep 24, 2020 at 4:21 pm #3677329
“You still have to peg it down but the structure of the shelter isn’t predicated fully on whether a peg holds.’ & “What I like about this set up is that should a guyline pull lose, the inherent structure of the shelter remains.”
David, thank you for expressing that so well, and better than I have been able to.
Roger, granted, there are the flat rock slabs. Any number of situations could force one to camp on one, and I’m glad you found the essential rocks to use as anchors. Australia has for several years held the record for highest recorded wind speed, surpassing the previous record on Mt. Washington. With all the summiting going on at Everest, and in the Kush, I’ve wondered why the windspeed record has not been broken once again. Even here, at little Chocorua, there was once a hotel above the treeline. Eventually, it was blown off the mountain. The small hikers’ cabin that replaced it has mammoth size chains running right over it in several directions, and secured with huge eye bolts in holes drilled into the rock. Very popular stop for hikers. Must have passed it dozens of times, but never stayed overnight. Like to sleep soundly.Sep 23, 2020 at 5:53 pm #3677224
“Switched to a silpoly tent because silnylon soaks up water like a sponge”
Agree, and another issue for me is the increased carry weight when silnylon is wet. So will build with silpoly except for a smaller, rectangular sil/PU coated nylon fly that does not cover the vestibules. The fly will be easily replaceable, so if the water absorption is still a problem, will make a new fly of something else. Perhaps a lighter sil/poly will come out.
Or maybe the whole analysis will change if heat and drought continue to increase.
Great thread. It got me thinking about issues I’d overlooked.Sep 23, 2020 at 5:32 pm #3677220
Tried several neoprene gloves. They all let water in, and were not very durable. Awful.
Bob K’s Crosspoint Knits sound very comfortable and waterproof. For the price, they would have to be durable, though.Sep 23, 2020 at 5:17 pm #3677219
I think the preference for free-standing tents above treeline is because: 1) The better ones place less stress on the pegs; and 2) Above treeline the ground may be less suitable for pegs, so less reliance on them makes sense. That assumes there is ground, not deep snow under foot.
The second comment I think suggests you may be narrow minded. Guess what. All humans are narrow minded. See the current PBS series, ‘Hacking the Mind.’ So it suggests that you are human. I think we knew that. The real question is when we are all long gone, and if evolution is still working, will people still be narrow minded? And the answer is just one of the many things we must live without ever knowing.Sep 22, 2020 at 12:32 am #3677005
Re: “NO NO NO.”
Roger, wrote a wise-ass post that was annoying. Sorry about that. The devil just gets into me from time to time.
And think the point has been made, that good venting is essential to performance of tents, including single wall tents. But so is fabric that better resists condensation. Like mylar, a film used on DCF. At least according to the late Jack Stephenson from his many trials. But it could also be something else, like eVent or other WPB.
And there are the devilish details, like the tautness of a tent wall that keeps it from rubbing and soaking you in the night. Or the tautness or lack of it with DCF in a single wall. There are many accounts here of DCF Fiddle-Factor with regular reports of difficulty getting tent walls taut. The photos look good, but the desperation of one current poster was so great he has set out to make a tent with zero pegs. Maybe a large dog will stay in it the whole time it is up.
And the Djedi’s 34+ oz less pegs is hardly revolutionary. Plead guilty to going for a SnowPeak Largo, same design as the Djedji in 1P, and it was worse than going head first into an MRI. But it provides an idea of why people go for “pop-ups,” the conventional hubbed or hubless flexed pole domes with the structural part being the floor and pole supported fabric/net inner, that in turn supports a fly that includes the vestibule(s), and gets thrown over it (Possible big Fiddle-Factor there also).
Despite all the mental energy gone into a hybrid that is the best of all worlds and leaves out the worst, would go for a truly WPB single wall tent fabric, because dream tents would be so easy to make. But they’ve been working on WPB rain jackets for decades, and lots of people find they fall short. So it is a big stretch to believe magical success has arrived with tent fabrics. Certainly won’t bet money on it.Sep 21, 2020 at 10:04 pm #3676998
Every moved to a new page generates it. It used to happen only when not signed in.
But now it happens just as often when signed in.
This is most obnoxious behavior by our hosts. It will kill a good, and formerly super, website. Hard to understand why you would shoot yourself in the foot.Sep 20, 2020 at 10:28 pm #3676913
Oh Roger, the vent on the Goondie is up high and larger than most on the market, but they could have put one on a back also for cross ventilation; but following your principles, they kept the rear completely buttoned up.
BTW, I’ve never had a drop of condensation on the inner walls (or floors) of either of these tents; although there is one other Aussie on BPL who has expressed disbelief.Sep 20, 2020 at 10:07 pm #3676912
The only place I’ve seen anything like that is an MYOG tent from the now proprietor of Trekkertent. He has a picture of it on his website, and when he posted it earlier on BPL, he talked about the horrendous winds it resisted in the Scottish highlands. So it seems to work. But not for those who use either zero or just one trekking pole.
You listed 4 priorities:
Use trekking poles in freestanding structure (but not in occupant’s way).
Lightest available materials (DCF)
Had no idea that stakes were verboten on planes, even Ti shepherd’s hooks assumedly. But can’t imagine not anchoring a freestanding tent with something. It could easily turn into a kite in open, exposed terrain, especially at higher altitudes. But would agree that a maximum of stakes, say 4-6, is ideal for a self-supporting structure.
It is interesting that your DCF tent has lasted 4 years, and knowing the number of nights used would also be helpful.
And of course, no argument with roomy/livable. I’m not a fan of cooking in a tent; but in driving, stormy weather, am also not a fan of skipping dinner. Found that was a bad idea for too many reasons. But the Sierras I recall, are nothing like the Rockies for mean weather. And also recognize the trend in minimizing vestibules to save weight.
Some other possible priorities to consider might be:
Ability to pitch without exposing the inside to rain.
Ability to go in and out without such exposure.
Large door openings (mentioned in your post).
Good wind shedding and resistance.
Minimal Fiddle Factor in pitch (not in your priorities, but discussed in your post.)
The use of DCF and non-zip closures implies minimal weight; but other components add up to significant weight, such as:
Pole ferrules, tips and shockcord
Acetal or Ti hardware, like pole connectors, elbows, buckles or linelocks.
Connectors-Fabric to Frame
And the damnable cord to add guylines in wind and rain storms. (A good design can substitute guylines for perimeter pegs-so no need to carry extra pegs).
Then there is the KIS (sometimes with an extra S) principle, ‘Keep It Simple.’
Not always, but usually, KIS = Less Weight
If I did hike with two trekking poles, one consideration would be a wicket shaped front pole, but with slanted poles on the sides; and a pointy arched hoop for the rear of a tunnel.
The wicket poles would be joined by tubing a bit stronger and longer than the nomad design used by Lightheart and others, so the top of the wicket would bow upward a little to create more space and shed rain better.
Await your next installment.Sep 18, 2020 at 6:25 pm #3676737
Roger, et al,
Re: “So, bottom line for us: it’s ventilation, ventilation and ventilation that matters, not the fabric or how many skins the tent has.”
Cannot disagree, because you said, “for us.” And I know there are plenty of poorly ventilated tents on the market, “dummies” do backpack, and conditions change.
Still and all, you can assume I am well ventilated. But is this enough? (Note the yellow high DWR but breathable splash protector projecting up from the bathtub floor, and there is a larger one at the rear):
Or with the door open, is this enough? Or enough if it is part way open?
Or is just this enough? Assuming conditions that create high condensation, probably not, although the manufacturer might not agree:
These are all australian tents BTW. So, in my stumbling and belated attempts to MYOT, there would be large protected vents under the peaks at both the front and rear of the tent, and the vestibule door on the downwind side zipped up as far open as the weather would allow.
One way to do this is by opening vents at ends of a tunnel, as you suggest. But one of my first attempts, as you might remember, was a solo tunnel, that bristled with condensation inside even with much venting at both ends. Another, is a tent like the above, with one-peg front and rear vestibules, allowing plenty of space for large vents on the non-door side of the vestibules at both the front and rear of the tent, and as said above, zipping open the door on the lee side as much as weather allows.
But I can tell you, with tents like those above, all of them were they single wall would be and have been loaded with interior condensation most places I hike. It is just the nature of the weather in Colorado and northern New England. If you want to stay dry, you must have a double wall; unless great advances have been made in tent fabric, as to which we both have expressed doubts. I’m not one to build or buy a tent with doubts. It’s enough work and/or $ already, and we should plan for the worst, or ‘be prepared’ as the scouts say.Sep 18, 2020 at 5:01 pm #3676719
Sympathize with all who hike in highly regulated areas. But they are a great argument for hiking in Wilderness Areas that are under a totally different department of the federal government, and have very little of the overly bureaucratic behavior of the National Parks. The Wilderness areas have regulations, but they are far less intrusive, and are online and posted at trailheads.
One could argue that the Parks need their bureaucracy, because they are so crowded. A good argument. But it is also a good argument for hiking in the Wilderness Areas, where I’ve often gone for weeks without seeing a soul.
I like to hike with dogs for many reasons, including that bears shy away from them. But Rocky (RMNP) is vigilant about keeping dogs out, even on boundary trails needed for through passage on the CDT. So on one occasion, without dogs and before I had discovered the route from Rawah Wilderness south in to the Never Summer Wilderness Trail, I had to detour through Rocky, and found it so overused, it has no wilderness quality whatsoever. The route was often on gravel roads, and went through a place called Lulu City, that looked like it had been trammeled by a million rhinos. Finally, just beelined out to the Park road, and hitchhiked to the first trail outside the Park boundary.
Suggest that backpackers will find more rewarding experiences in the Wilderness Areas, and far less bureaucracy to contend with. If you know how to camp safe, then less supervision is a blessing, not a problem. And there is just as abundant scenery in the Wilderness Areas, more actually IMO, if only because of the serene atmosphere of the mountains.
Agree that for areas outside the continental US, it is a different story. But I’ve been backpacking in Wilderness Areas in the lower 48 for years, and would still never be able to tour all the most beautiful areas if I lived to be a hundred. Also, my expenses are not much more than when hiking at home. Drive, not fly. Much of the food is already prepared and packed in a portable cooler. Stay in small friendly motels and cabins wherever possible. It is a great way to learn about places and a country I never would have known existed, and make great new friendships.Sep 16, 2020 at 11:44 pm #3676474
Reading this thread, it occurred to me that part of the problem with those Neo Airs and their progeny is that they are too thick when mostly inflated, and take up more space in a tent. The thicker air mats also do not work well with a lighter weight shortie, because then the body has to adjust to two different height levels. Good luck with that.
So in a tent, with a durable floor, a ground sheet if you need it, and a shortie Nemo self-inflator, I’ve not had a problem with losing heat to the ground in the shoulder seasons at altitude in the continental US. And I feel more comfortable closer to the ground and the pad takes up less room and leaves more for me in the tent.
When I’ve been cold, it is not from the ground, and use puffies that must be carried anyway to cook and eat, etc.when it gets colder. That includes the puffy top, bottom, slippers, and fleece watchcap, adding to the temp rating of the bag or quilt. Switched to down bags years ago because they are much warmer for weight, even though they require greater care. The difference in warmth for less weight with high quality down was palpable.
Mention these seemingly unrelated matters, because I think the need for the thicker air filled mats to hold heat has become overrated, and as this thread illustrates, is uncomfortable for many others than myself. Insulations can be much thinner, yet hold more heat nowadays. It also helps to pitch in grassy duff, and don’t mind spending a little time finding a good tentsite. So, I’m more comfortable closer to the ground, and don’t have to either pump or huff and puff.
For winter camping, or for sleeping in the open cowboy style, it may be a difference story. But not for me. I’ve found that with food hung up well away, hungry beasts respect human enclosures, and those enclosures may become life savers in freakish weather.Sep 16, 2020 at 10:27 pm #3676463
I hike in the northern Appalachian mountains and mountains surrounding the Continental Divide, mostly in Colorado and sometimes in Wyoming. Always in the shoulder seasons and until now, in August. There are regular torrential rainstorms in both locales. Said ‘until now’, because climate change may heat things up in August, as it did this year with heat and drought.
Given the above, I’ve not hiked in exactly any of the conditions you describe; but condensation has always been a problem, so always have used double wall tents.
But your night in the freezing rain does suggest that the temp was in the 20’s and 30’s F., which are usual for me in the evenings and at night. Note that due to the altitudes in the mountains, the temps are generally cooler than those at, say, Denver CO, or Augusta, ME.
Although I would not be interested in the Djedi because without add-ons it does not fully protect the inside when entering or leaving the tent in heavy rain, you’ve interested me in how well the outer fabric did during a night in the freezing rain. There have been fabrics available that are very light, and specified eVent in the material. However, tried these in garments and found they did not help with condensation, or as is often said, they did not “breathe” well, and my perspiration level is no more than average. Could devise an enclosure to test one of those fabrics in heavy rain, but am not too hopeful that it would be worth the effort.
So don’t see dispensing with protective inner walls any time soon, although for years I’ve wished I could, because single walls would make tent construction so much easier, and possibly lighter than a ~1 oz woven fabric with a ~0.7 oz inner of woven fabric and/or netting.Sep 15, 2020 at 1:18 am #3676156
Maybe I’m overly optimistic, but believe that there is nothing that with enough thought cannot be explained in plain English. That is probably from my Dad explaining my homework; but even he got a little sketchy when we got to calculus. BTW, a neighbor works in a gear shop on Sundays, and passes the stories on to me. He is the most patient person I know, so perfect for that job.
As far as WPB single wall tents are concerned, there is no need to argue the science, because I’ve seen so many that don’t work, I’d need to try one that does work in order to believe it.Sep 15, 2020 at 12:55 am #3676155
It was great of you to share a good outcome with this procedure. Like you, I was somewhat leery of it being a scam; however, the “reduced” price of $12000 for one stick per knee made a knee replacement paid by insurance the only option, and that ended that.
Was going to have one knee replaced this year, but the virus occasioned three postponements, so just to stay mobile, tried a process called PRP (Plasma Rich Platelets), that is said to encourage our own bodies to produce stem cells. And it was only a fraction of the cost.
It certainly was not as remarkable as your outcomes; but was enough to hold me over for a while when I had gotten to the point when Hyaluronic acid compounds (Synvisc, Orthovisc etc.) would no longer help. In evaluating these novel treatments, I think one has to watch closely for a possible placebo effect; but the savant who said “know thyself’ may have been pulling our legs, given human nature.
I did find one Doc who is recoating areas of lost cartilage, but only where the areas are in only a small part of the knee, and certainly not in all three compartments. Some day they will be able to implant artificial cartilage; but haven’t heard any reports that day is near.Sep 15, 2020 at 12:10 am #3676153
What Dondo said. +1Sep 15, 2020 at 12:04 am #3676152
With a flexible, and certainly a woven fabric, a second line of stitching will spread the force between the two stitch lines. Unless you are doing a peel, which would be asking for trouble, I think.Sep 14, 2020 at 11:59 pm #3676150
That a fabric is not calendered does not necessarily mean it is not downproof. Their are various coatings, some to add DWR, that will do so. At one time, very thin PU coatings were used on light nylon to add DWR. But agree one has to be sure before buying for a down app.Sep 14, 2020 at 11:47 pm #3676149
McNett has conveyed some or all of their business to a new owner.
But the product is still sold as SEAMGRIP in the same tubes, but as you point out, some are labelled SEAMGRIP WP..
At one time I tested all the PU adhesives and sealants on the market, and SEAMGRIP came out way ahead as a seam sealer for fabrics. More recently, I bonded the coated sides of a PU coated nylon with SEAMGRIP, and the bond was so strong I could not peel the two pieces apart. Because SEAMGRIP is a sealant, it has a lot of viscosity, and it took some time to make the coats on the fabric very thin for bonding, as Jerry suggests.
So ordered a can of thinner suggested on a BPL thread, tried a bond, and the pieces easily came apart after curing. Don’t know if the thinner had Toluene in it. It was noxious stuff, and I got rid of it. I’d rather take the time to apply the regular SEAMGRIP very thinly.
Loctite has been selling a 2 part PU adhesive for years, and at one time, many posted that they were using the low viscosity version to bond Cuben cloth from Cubic Technologies. (As most know, Cubic Tech sold their products and the material is now called DCF (Dynema Composite Fabric), and from tests posted on BPL, DCF appears to be more water resistant.) I bought some of the low viscosity from McMaster Carr, and found it to be quite viscous, and not worth the extra expense for bonding PU coated fabrics.
I think the test bonds you are doing with the one part Loctite product should tell you it compares to SEAMGRIP for bonding DCF to DCF.Sep 7, 2020 at 1:31 am #3675044
I have a similar problem. But first, suggest trying neoairs in a store just to be sure that the ones you used were not defective.
Assuming they were not defective, for me they are still glorified air mattresses. Even on expensive air or water beds, I feel like I’m going to float off the edges, and become nauseated. Even Thermarest’s so-called self-inflating mats have this effect, although to a lesser extent. (Note, none of them are really self-inflating, but if left unplugged for a while, will take in a fair amount of air, so require less puffs to inflate.)
However, tried some short self-inflators from Nemo, and they were OK. Felt like I was slipping around on a gel, rather than a balloon filled with air, and it was OK.
Still, the first pad you mention is a closed cell, about 3/4 inches at it thickest. But it is one of those that has varying thickness, and might not provide much padding or support.
Would suggest trying one of the thicker self-inflators. If that does not work, you might need to carry a rolled up closed cell foam pad, akin to a thick exercise mat. I’ve seen hikers packing these, and although they are bulky, they may be what is required for a good night’s sleep.
What also helps are evergreen boughs. I pitched a tent over a collection of these left by someone else, and got the best sleep ever on a backpacking trip. However, there may be prohibitions on cutting boughs these days, so best to check first.
And agree with the suggestion about making a depression for the hips, although not sure that would work for me because I roll around when sleeping, and the depression would drive me nuts.
Hope you find a solution, as sleeping outdoors in the fresh air is quite enjoyable for many.Sep 7, 2020 at 12:24 am #3675038
In fairness to SD, would not want you to rely on my recollection after 14 yrs. Here is a copy of the correspondence I was referring to:
Happy venting.Sep 6, 2020 at 11:51 pm #3675036
Idester: re “Sam, I assume you’re talking about these?”
Yes, that’s them. Sorry for the delayed response.