Forum Replies Created
- Oct 21, 2019 at 11:09 am #3614984
Roger, you can use this: https://smallpdf.com/pdf-to-jpgOct 20, 2019 at 12:09 pm #3614801
Yeah, I agree, Roger. Bags, quilts and pads are all over the scales. The best you can do is read some good Cold Weather reviews.
The basic pad rating is, in itself, also not quite clear cut. As Roger described, there are regions (under you) that have far less insulation than other areas. CCF, Down or Synthetic fills, underlying ground conditions, metabolism, sleeping position etc, all force difficulties in registering consistent temps…death for any standard. However, a standard IS needed. R5 is the closest to a good 3 season pad covering the wide range of spring/summer/fall conditions. Even that is lacking for late fall/early spring, though.
During UL/SUL seasons, it is rare to mention the difficulties trying to sleep under a too warm quilt/bag. Bugs are out, rodents abound, and midnight pests are numerous. Sleeping in a tent is always too warm. Sleeping under a tarp or other floorless shelter means bugs. DEET and ilk become an essential part of sleeping gear. Quilts and bags are almost painfully warm. Yet, it is common to sleep under them as you cower in fear of the bugs. And, there is nothing to be done about the heat. In cooler weather, you can add layers, in heat you cannot shed more than your skin. The upper comfort range becomes a real thing.Oct 12, 2019 at 4:24 pm #3613746
Reflective liners are good, but they also have limits. If the first one reflects 90% of radiant heat back to you, a second layer will only reflect 9% of the total. This is barely worth it compared to the extra weight. A standard Xlite only uses one reflective barrier and internal triangular baffling. The Tensor uses two reflective barriers and larger internal baffling. So, the reflected heat is likely better with the Tensor, but, convectional losses are higher. (Smaller internal baffling means greater heat retention, as a general rule.) I suspect that Ryan will see a marked difference between with and without his 1/8″ CCF pad at 10F.
Convectional losses in inflatable pads (no insulation) are higher than self inflating or CCF pads, anyway. As you sink into the inflatable bad, it tends to wrap up around your body a bit. So, convection becomes more important than reflectivity. Reflectivity only comprises about 10-15% of your bodily heat losses anyway. We tend to ignore that as obvious with most pads, but it can get quite annoying at 20F. Even the edge bleeding can cause a bit of heat loss through convection/conduction.
Anyway, I agree 100% that down will last far longer than synthetics. Even in the best case for synthetics and worst case for down, I expect at least a 10 times longer use out of down. Average use on both is closer to 15 to 20 times or more.Oct 11, 2019 at 12:28 pm #3613514
OK, so you want a good beginners outfit for $500 that will last at least a year and keep the person comfortable down to 20F with minimal field repairs.
1) A used pack (brand is mostly irrelevant when buying used.) It needs at least a 2400ci volume (~40L.) Usually available for about $75. Two side pockets, and, one front pouch.
2) Sleeping System: Well a fair down bag, could be used. I would caution people that used down could have been mistreated: miss-laundered, stored damp, etc. Preferably, regular down, not dry down. https://hammockgear.com/economy-burrow/ at $220 with a couple CCF pads. But, due to budget constraints, a synthetic bag will work at around $40.
3) Shelter: Simple tarp with plastic ground cloth. Around $85 https://www.amazon.com/Sanctuary-SilTarp-Ultralight-Waterproof-Backpacking/dp/B01E6454HO?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_1
4) Water Treatment: Sawyer Mini, around $30
5) Cooking: MYOG alky stove, windscreen, grease pot & lid. around $20
6) Clothing: Used at Salvation Army, etc… ~$100, jacket, long johns, shirt, sweater
7) Water bottles are reused wide mouth gatoraid bottles. Coke bottle for fuel. Lights are about $10-$20. Line is $10 para-cord.
8) Maps, compass, dry bags, etc: $30-$50
This comes close, I think.Oct 11, 2019 at 2:02 am #3613470
Roger, those articles are badly dated. Many (most) of the packs are not even available anymore. Some brands are not even mentioned and have sprouted up since 2010: HMG, Gossamer Gear, for some examples. It is in need of updating, I think. ‘Corse, I am sure you can find some of the stuff still available used.
There seems a severe dichotomy between cheap, functional type backpacking, and, general lightweight backpacking. Some is both, but for how long? And, how comfortable will you be on a two week hike?
Durability is something that is also factored in to what we do and is not even mentioned. We expect a cheap mylar tarp to fail after 3-4 nights. A cheap 30F synthetic sleeping bag can be had for $29 but only lasts about half a year. With the assumption I can get about 10 years out of my down quilt (a rather low life span,) it is far cheaper to purchase the high quality down quilt at ~$30/yr vs. the $58/yr for the “cheap” synthetic wally-world specials. The mylar tarps were mentioned, but after a couple nights in 40F, rainy, windy weather, I would much rather have a larger tarp and relegate the mylar to ground cloth duty just for comfort. If the mylar lasts only 4 nights and I need to replace it at $1 fifteen times to hit my average 60nights per year, then this is outrageously expensive. My MYOG shaped tarp cost ~$58 and will last for a typical 10 years, or, about $6/yr. Not the $15/yr for a smaller, less durable, less reliable mylar tarp. (This is discounting the constant battle to get a replacement on a 2 week hike.)
Yes, it is often lighter to carry “one trip” items. But, would you realistically say you can survive a night of windy, wet, 30F weather under an emergency blanket and WANT to repeat the experience? We need to be a little more real.
Emylene put an “upset” figure on her pack kit of $500. But it is difficult to say whether any of this gear will hold up after one year. Or through a single winter trip. I have an older Backpackinglight Ti Spoon. It cost me $20 at the time. I still use it with the cost going down each year. I would suggest, rather, to get one high quality item, say a good 20F quilt, then purchase other gear to stick within the $500 limit used. The following year, she can keep only the quilt, and buy a good tent, pack and pad. Something that will last 3-5 years. The third year, she can get a good stove, light, hiking staff, rain gear, down jacket, etc. By the end of the fifth year, she will have a good kit, even if some of the items are getting older.
In essence, and without more info and trail-time parameters from Emylene, she is asking an impossible to answer question. Durability, reliability, functionality, and overall comfort are all ignored. None of these has a good answer for dollars or weight or durability or … indeed we discuss this all the time, here. My vote would be to get as good as you can afford, make do till next year with less durable gear. Quality has a big initial price tag. But, in most cases, it is justified over a ten year life cycle. I don’t think I have purchased anything in the past 3 years. And, my base for three season weather (above 32F) is still less than 10 pounds. I also have a couple items in my kit that are well over 40 years old. And no, you cannot buy them anymore.Oct 10, 2019 at 1:08 pm #3613326
Yes, The Revelation is a bit shorter after cinching. But, this was a known issue even a few years back. A few highly respected hikers recommended the long, wide to me several years ago when I was researching another bag. I tend to be a restless sleeper, rolling from one side to the other, often stopping on my back or stomach along the way. A lot depends on your sleeping style. Plenty of people are happy with a regular length, anyway, usually side sleepers as is the majority of the population. But, fully stretched out, on my stomach, with my head covered (except for my face) I find that the long (84″) is just enough and I am only 5’9″ tall. Again, a lot depends on your sleeping style.
Historically, unless temps dip below 20F, I never bothered with zippers, anyway, rather using the bag as a quilt…loose over me. However, the foot-box was shaped. I avoided bags with a differential fill (ie, much like the BA bags with down over you and only a pad keeper below.) A quilt was a natural extension of this when I was looking for a new bag between the Marmot 0 and summer weight 40F bags I had. Allowing 9″ for the foot box meant the regular would not cover my head. So, these calculations agreed with the recommendations.
I saw several people using quilts less than 20F, and several people switching at 30F to a full sleeping bag. It got down to 10F one night with my Marmot and realized that drafts would be a problem at 20F and below. I usually zip up my bags at near the lower limits. Especially, because I roll around a lot, I went with the wide width. (I also purchased a Hoodlum, but never needed it.) I see Tim updated the web site to insure people know about the length allowances needed for the sleeping style an individual uses. I am not sure when he did that. This is just a series of notes, not an actual chart on his site. An allowance chart for sleeping style would be a good idea for any quilt manufacturer. If he doesn’t already have one, a chart for recommended Insulating Values for pads would also be a nice add-on. I found my old pad at R3.2 wasn’t quite enough at 20F and needed a slightly warmer pad (R4.0 or so.)
But, you might be able to trade up to a long for near the full price applied toward the new one. Of course, a certain amount of shipping/handling still needs to be applied. Check with Tim (EE) to see if he will do that. He doesn’t seem to have any problem selling used quilts. Or, try to sell it here and purchase a long one. Those things can happen easy enough if EE also wishes to maintain their customization line.
To me, opening the foot box would not be the best option. I would pay for the couple ounce increase for a longer quilt.Sep 30, 2019 at 11:33 am #3612160
Thanks, Stephen. I think you have the min and max column headers reversed.Sep 30, 2019 at 11:19 am #3612159
Paul, Yes. I have experienced that exact thing in winter. I was generally quite cold, borderline hypothermic. Yet, after hiking 7 miles, I was sweating at 20F, even with numb hands, nose and feet. My back, armpits, groin were still soaking wet with sweat (usual for my training hikes.)
There are several mechanisms that cause sweating. Heating generated from muscles, hormonal influences, local “warmth” sources (like a backpack being worn,) stress, Pavlovian style response mechanisms, normal “insensible” perspiration, pain, and likely a few I forgot. There is evidence for a central temperature regulation mechanism and for local regulation. Some is involuntary, some is voluntary, some is learned, again involuntary and voluntary. Some is dependent on your overall bodily fluids and electrolytes. It is a very complex subject and not one that can easily be associated with hard work, though that is probably the easiest to understand. But similar to breathing, you must sweat, if only to keep your skin soft enough to be able to move.Sep 29, 2019 at 3:07 pm #3612034
Karen, sorry about the late reply, out hiking…
Yeah, I usually manage down to about 40F/~4C w/rain with just my rain jacket and light hiking shirt. Rain isn’t a problem, ‘cuz I get a bit sweaty anyway. I have been out on training hikes at 38F with just a short sleeved shirt and come back soaking wet with sweat.
Rain is a big problem though. I hits my skin and rolls off after soaking up heat. I get cold very fast. So, an XXL rain jacket goes on over my hiking shirt. This provides plenty of ventilation because of being oversized. It sheds the water without soaking much body heat, first. This is my usual for hiking in rain at temps down to about snowing (as high as 35F.) When the temperature is above 50F, I often skip the rain jacket anyway, choosing to just hike wet. At much above 60F, I slow down a bit because it is really too hot to travel fast unless it is a heavy rain. Between 30-40F, whenever I think about it, I slip my sweater on. But, I have been out with just my rain jacket and shirt in regular snow (between 28F and 32F.) Once you get snow, it is actually warmer to hike, because of being dryer.
Mountain mist isn’t a problem usually. After a couple hours everything can get wet, anyway. It is rare that it continues all day, mostly till 1200 or so. By 1600 I stop for camp. I set up camp, change into dry night cloths and hang my shirt/pants…usually after rinsing them out. In the fall weather, I only have a few hours of hiking, anyway. Usually between 0900 and 1600. (I make coffee, oatmeal/cocoa for breakfast, usually before packing and only hike til late afternoon.) But, in fall, I can hike faster. So, it is around the same 15mi I put in on summer days.
While I am moving, this is plenty. Once I set up camp, things get really cold, fast. I have used my shirt and rain gear as a second layer over my down jacket at camp. I always set up some kind of tarp for a dry area…usually in front of the fire. The small tarp is only 9oz and provides a good dry area for sitting around at camp, cooking, and, for sleeping under occasionally…good for two people and the camp fire in fall.
Anyway, moving through the ADK’s usually requires a good effort. Normally, a wool shirt is better than a synthetic because it will hold heat even if it gets wet. And, it ventilates better. And, it has pores that let out my sweat. This due to the stiffer fibers. Wetting them doesn’t seem to flatten out the fibers too much. Yes, it is heavier than a synthetic fleece. However, it is warmer when soaking wet. Cooler when dry. I believe it is more versitile and worth the 14oz weight. When dry (or just damp) a rain jacket over it closes up the pores and leaves me with a 1/4″ of “felt” as insulation. Doing nothing at camp, it is often too much with a rain jacket. (I also use my sweater to 0F for shoveling snow.) When it is wet, I often use it to find and cut firewood for camp. Again, it is sometimes too much for cutting. Especially after I get a little fire going. (This is no more than 16″ around and, with a good rock wall, will raise the reflected temp a lot.) The tarp usually covers the fire or close to it. It really warms up under it and drys things a LOT.
Anyway, my overall pack weights in late fall/early spring are NOT UL. I typically carry about 15pounds(base) or about double what I carry in warmer weather. I take the same gear, plus extra socks (knee length wool,) sweater, rain gear, 5 or 6 wet weather fire starters, my saw, sweater, camp shoes and other things (including my light fleece.) I forgo those in summer.Sep 24, 2019 at 5:33 pm #3611560
Yeah, well this IS backpackinglight. Anything that adds weight for no immediate value is not a good thing. 3F isn’t enough to bother with. Some places allow overfill by the oz. You pays your money, you take your chances. Putting 5-6oz in a bag IS possible. Other than expedition type trips and long term durability, I don’t think overfill in WM bags is worth it. For most, WM bags are good the way they are sold. Keep them clean, and, avoid using them more than a week. If I need an extra 3-6oz of overfill, I would far rather it is in my more versatile jacket. At least it gets used every night/morning, besides adding to the bag.Sep 24, 2019 at 3:29 pm #3611543
Brad, there is a limit to how much overstuffing can help. 1-3oz is probably about all you can get without loosing some insulating value. It does gain, but not as much as fully lofted down. Of course, this depends on how much down the bag already has. Here is the description from WM:
Overfill adds additional fill to your bag. This increases the warmth of the bag by 3 to 5 degrees. It will improve warmth for active sleepers since moving during sleep can shift down. Overfill also improves loft duration. During extended use down becomes clumped with moisture, dirt, and oils. Overfill prevents this by adding more fluff. Check out this list of overfillable items and the cost:
<table id=”tablepress-3″ class=”tablepress tablepress-id-3″>
<th class=”column-2″>Overfill Fill Weight</th>
<td class=”column-1″>Foot Box Overfill (any bag), Tamarack</td>
<td class=”column-1″>MityLite, SummerLite, MegaLite, UltraLite, Alder MF, Sycamore MF, Apache MF & GWS</td>
<td class=”column-1″>TerraLite, AlpinLite, VersaLite, Badger MF & GWS, Antelope MF & GWS, Ponderosa MF,</td>
<td class=”column-1″>Sequoia MF & GWS, Kodiak MF & GWS, Lynx MF & GWS</td>
<td class=”column-1″>Bristlecone MF, Puma MF & GWS, Cypress GWS, Bison GWS</td>
Note that they only recommend a small amount of overfill (~15% of the existing down.) Like sleeping on the bottom of your bag, you loose insulating value by compressing it. More than one overfill by the WM folks causes this same effect. You get around a 3F degree increase in temp rating, in an otherwise 10F rated bag. Without space to loft, the down becomes less and less efficient (down to the thermal conductivity of the plumes.) At some point, the temp graphs MUST cross between adding warmth and increasing compression. (Likely close to 30% overfill, but this is a guestimate from looking at the 3F increase in temp rating.) At the crossing point, you gain no more increase, hence adding more is weight and temperature inefficient…you gain nothing by overfilling more. Many years ago I talked to WM about that (in relation to a bag) and that was the just of what they were saying.
A clean bag, will last about a week before it starts to degrade (from body oils, dirt and dust infiltration, mostly.) This is using a set of long johns inside. Without the long johns a bit sooner. In a cold weather bag, icing can occur inside the down (as the dew point moves into the down.) An overstuff will give you about 1 extra night in 10 out, for immediate durability. For long term durability, overstuff will help by replacing some of the damaged down (damage occurring from simply sleeping on it, a small amount of tearing occurs each time. Simply washing with water and drying it will help the bag by removing body oils and some dirt.) Personnaly, I never stay out in 10f weather for any length of time. I would opt for the looser lofting of the Antilope and keeping the bag clean than using an overfilled Versalite.Sep 24, 2019 at 1:23 pm #3611529
Peter, actually, a wok or semi-spherical shape has less surface area to absorb heat than a “square” pot. I actually indent the bottom of my grease pot in a series of ridges that adds a type of heat exchanger to the bottom. Works really well (10-15% efficiency improvement, or, same flame for less boil time.)
Sorry, I missed the part about the stainless.Sep 24, 2019 at 1:05 pm #3611527
Be a bit carefull about overfills. While great for longer term usability, overfilling can compress all the down making it about the same temperature as it was, rather than gaining anything.Sep 24, 2019 at 1:01 pm #3611526
I have had little trouble with a couple bics. The piezo ones do not work well in the hills. Avoid them and get a standard roller. Remove the finger guard by simply wiggling in a standard screw driver, and twist. The little bics do not have the same pressure at the jet as the larger ones. Below 40F they often have a hard time. Keep these in your pocket for warmth. Larger ones seem much better. Again, butane starts falling off rapidly after about 40F. I had a mini that got down to 20F and didn’t do anything but spark. After warming, I could hear a slight hissing from the jet. Apparently it was leaking. I played with the button a bit but lost most of the fuel. I gave up on little ones and went back to the regular ones.Sep 23, 2019 at 9:39 pm #3611473
As an UltraLighter, I never use fleece. My dry layers are always dry, all my down goes in a bag at the bottom of my pack. They are not available to use while hiking. I carry a wool sweater and my rain jacket. Wet conditions are always nasty when the temps start dropping. Down to freezing, I just use my hiking shirt and rain jacket. In colder, I add my sweater over my hiking shirt and slip on my rain jacket over that. This has held me to 20f while hiking, even though I eventually get wet. When I get to a camp spot, I set up my tarp and toss in my dry bag, get water (often a 1/4mi hike or less) I start up my stove and put it under the tarp and crawl in. The water is boiling when I get changed, in goes my supper for a minute and off it goes, placing my hot pot on my quilt with my hat over it. The little heat under the tarp means it is fairly warm. My down jacket is around me and I set up the cloths line for my hiking cloths…spacing them out according to length. At 20F, I sometimes move my pot to the foot, and wrap the rest around my torso and legs. I am good to about 20F like this, but the morning can be a bitch. My cloths are drained but always wet.Sep 23, 2019 at 8:42 pm #3611467
I understand how the corrugations would break up any laminar flows, especially at the low air velocities of a wood stove, but they also increase convective/radiant surface area in the stove. I believe Ben has a point.
Ti is no where near the conductivity of steel. It would act more efficiently as an insulator than steel trapping more heat inside.
When boiling 2 cups/~1/2L, needed for most backpackers meals, much of the upper space in the water vessel would be heated needlessly, well, to little effect, anyway.
I will give it high marks for versatility, though. The various configurations are a good thing.
But, for me, the big killer is the very high center of gravity. Too high for safe operation most of the places I hike.Sep 23, 2019 at 12:47 pm #3611428
I wear a an extra light, long sleeved shirt and hike in baggy, nylon pants.
1) Because they are cooler than leaving my skin exposed to the sun they have good sun protection. This slows sweating.
2) Initially, they are warmer, but, they hold sweat next to your skin and soak it away into the shirt/pants. Then the cloths get cooler forming a micro-climate. The micro-climate is held next to you actually cooling you off better than hiking in shorts/bare chested, short sleeves or short pants.
3) Your sweat glands are not distributed evenly on your body, soo, soaking the sweat into say a long sleeved shirt allows sweaty areas to distribute water making your sweat more efficient at evaporating heat away from you. Your whole shirt and pants get damp. A good example is on your arm. You can see beads of sweat on your arm. You are better off soaking that water to the surrounding area for cooling.
4) Brush & scrub are always digging at my legs. The long pants and shirt help a LOT protecting your skin from breaks.
5) Bug protection is important, also. Many bugs have to bore their way into your skin to get a meal. They simply cannot get through a tight woven or knitted sleeve/pants leg. Blackflies, deerflies, horse flies and stable flies are good examples, here. However, the UL shirts and pants are not stinger/proboscis proof. A mosquito or bee can bite through them.
6) They provide a layer for soaking permethrin and bug dope into. Not all bugs are deterred by bug dope, but you use far less when applied to your clothing, rather than your skin. Permethrin attaches to clothing and does not bleed into your skin and body.
Anyway, hiking in short sleeves/short pants are like asking for an increased risk of scratches, bites and even skin cancer. I never do it.Sep 23, 2019 at 11:46 am #3611422
I have an old Zpacks SOLO+. When it was new, it was quite loud. The wind would blow over it like a plane. After several years, it quieted down a bit. I much prefer silnylon for noise. In rain and/or hail DCF sounds like it will be split at the next gust. Sil gets loud with big raindrops or hail, but you don’t need ear plugs. This was something Roger forgot on another thread about resiliency.Sep 22, 2019 at 9:59 pm #3611344
Thanks Ryan. A good, easily understood calculation.
Ha, really good trail food!Sep 22, 2019 at 12:49 pm #3611265
I use a Steripen, Opti. I DO NOT carry extra water, only 0.5-1L (<1-2lbs.) The Steripen CAN treat larger volumes of water. Simply turn it on again. I have had a couple filters plug while using them (Saywer Mini, MSR pump, and, a gravity filter I made.) With the rubber ring on, the Steripen has survived being immersed in water. A drop of superglue holds it in place. You might want a prefilter (a small nylon bag I sewed up out of no-see-um mesh that slips over the water bottle mouth and pokes down into the mouth.) But, I quit carrying it. They last about 2-3 weeks on the trail before you need new batts. Good life, but not real great. The only place it becomes a problem is where you find trichinosis worms. They weigh about the same as a Sawyer, all told and save a LOT of carrying, unless you are in a desert.Sep 12, 2019 at 1:41 am #3609882
Gary Dunckel, the “rubber tourniquet thingies” are actually non-sterile latex tubes. You can get them at different stores, often at the drug store. You often need two to keep the roll tight.
A piece of webbing is what I used, also. Line cuts into the pad.Sep 11, 2019 at 2:40 pm #3609796
For two of us, I use a Steripen Opti. Good enough life to last 14 days on the trail. Gatoraid bottles have a wide mouth that the opti fits into. So we carry four 0.5L or the newer 20oz ones on the trail. Getting water at camp is a matter of taking the cook pot and filling a 2L (actually a 2.5 liter) Platy and filling it with the pot. Then we fill the pot (a 1qt grease pot.) between the two, this is enough for the evening supper, breakfast, and just enough for three cups of coffee apiece. Often there is enough left over to douse the campfire, otherwise, that means more water. Solo, it is plenty of water for that.Sep 11, 2019 at 12:34 pm #3609782
I have a couple with the Over the Top designs. In particular the older 2012 Murmur (nearly identical to the Kumo, except no top pouch and straight front pouch. The newer murmurs have a roll top design.)
I have used it on about 1000 miles through some rather rough terrain in the ADKs. Peak bagging, a couple 140mi trips on the NPT, through the 5 Ponds area, etc.
Generally I like the design. When the pack is very full, it closes over and compresses the pack. However, with too much pressure, it tends to bulge the pack into your back. With a firm pressure, it produces some curve matching the curve of your back. I also use a 5 layer nightLight pad in the pad keeper to supply stiffness and for sleeping on shorter 2-3night trips. This provides plenty of resistance for the compression of the OTT design.
The design also allows me to keep my sweater, rain jacket under it. I get a lot of intermittent showers, thunderstorms and it makes putting them on and off easy. You can put a bear can under it, but, it needs a firm cinch (see above,) and, it takes up as much room as dropping it in the bottom of the pack. The overall geometry means I do not put a bear ball up there, simply putting it under my compression sack inside the pack.
It seems rugged enough, but I am sure a MYOG pack will be better built. Over the miles I put on it, I did some bushwhacking, and, many miles of trail maintenance. A couple times I need to carry a chainsaw, gas/oil for that. On a bushwhack it can snag if you do not keep it fairly tight, though. The upper corners (once cinched down) can be annoying traveling UL because I run out of cinch adjustment to tighten it down sufficiently, the pack itself is too big. It is not the best for the combination UL travel and bushwhack. A smoother roll top, dry bag style is smoother.
It does keep rain from getting in the pack. Better than the typical drawstring type closure, provided you waterproof the material. But on a canoe trip, I dumped it in a bad landing and it did let a lot of water into the pack. It leaves the main body open under the lid. Good in rain, lousy if it gets submerged. For hiking it is excelent, for boats not too great.
The Murmur was my main go-to pack for 5 years. The lower cord locks pulled loose twice. I finally just sewed them in. I used it more before I got the HMG Windrider 2400. With no insurmountable geometry problems, it is nearly water tight in any submergence. But, it has the same problem iff you use the lower lid mounts. I just roll it down fairly tight and clip it together dry bag style to avoid the arcing/bulging that can occur. I cut the lower buckles/web strap off and sealed the seam holes because they were just added weight.Sep 10, 2019 at 10:26 pm #3609740
Yeah, I can add that the white nylon tarp we used over the old pup tent didn’t last nearly as long as my forest green tarp. Eight vs sixteen years. This was not nylon 6,6.Sep 10, 2019 at 10:21 pm #3609738
Yeah, I have two originals that are still OK, even though by morning they are soft. The other was simply worn out a couple years ago. They are not a pair, though, One is regular and the other is a medium. The wife and I use them for car camping, these days. Snuggled up together, we often take our 40F bags down to 25F, comfortably. She doesn’t care to use the CCF pads.